[BittenBuggy]

Nobody yell at me if this has been done before Because I don't go back and read every post...

If an elf (Not a Prehedril) and a human have children, are the children mortal or immortal?

What physical attributes would the child take from the elf? The human?

What skills would they most likely adapt? Would they have elven senses?

Would they age more slowly? And if so, how old would they probably get? (And how would they age?)

Would they be allowed to go West?


Just a few questions that are quite pertinent to the fic I'm writing. Thanks!

[Viv]

Products of elf/human unions were not weird hybrid creatures: they were either elf or man. Some got to pick which race; others didn't. The sense is that the early ones sort of surprised Eru, so he didn't really know how to categorize them. But as the ages went on, we got some really solid rules for how these things happened. By the time Arwen's kids came into the world, there was no question that they would be counted among Men.

So, the characteristics of your original character depends a lot on which age your character is living in. A first age character would have a little more flexibility. A third-age character would almost certainly be counted among Men, mostly to reduce the complexity and because the Valar no longer wanted to be involved with the doings in Middle-earth.

My gut instinct would be that, after the stunt Earendil pulled, any peredhil after him would not be allowed to go west (with specific exceptions of Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen ... those guys were given a choice).

Regarding long lives of humans who have an elf parent: Elros was the dude mentioned in this regard, and his long life could be attributed to a huge number of factors, not the least of which was parents' heroism and his own unusual lineage. I wouldn't assume that all kids born of elf/human unions would have long lives, pointed ears, or the ability to walk atop snow.

[miriel361]

I agree with most of what Viv said. I also looked into this for my story. I personally believe that elves and humans are not truely compatible otherwise there would be alot more half-elves running around.

Also elves are not overly productive as regards off-spring. So you will need to think as to where this could lie. Do elven males only produce fully active sperm at certain times or do the females only ovulate once every hundred years or so? Whatever you decide, you have to make us believe it.

As to the Peredhil: I don't believe that it was the elven blood that enabled these offspring to be born. Rather I tip on the Maia blood, which is more powerful and magical.


My main character (Elrohir) chose to have a child with a human woman. The conception was an act of will on his behalf. However he assumed the child would be human because by the time that she would be born Elrond would have returned to the West.

Elrond's children had the choice as to whether they would be elves or humans. However if they wanted to become elves then they had to return with their father. If they stayed in Middle Earth, then they would become human - hence Arwen becoming mortal.

One more note to the children of Elrond. They are always referred to as Peredhel or half-elves, never as elves.

Hope this helps.

[sindohte]

[sindohte]

[Varda]

I'll just add one small thing:

In all of Tolkien there is precisely one documented case of a pure-blooded Elf marrying a pure-blooded Man: this is the case of Tuor son of Huor of the House of Hador of the Edain marrying Idril Celebrindal daughter Turgon of the people of Finwe. The other few mixed unions weren't pure (either mother or father or both weren't 100% mortal or elven to begin with). There is also the supposedly pure-blooded union of Imrazôr and Mithrellas - whether it even happened none now present in Middle Earth may determine with any accuracy (and the Powers that be remain silent )

Basically this means there is very little data to go on. Especially since the only child of the above mentioned union of Idril and Tuor was Earendil, who was sufficiently mortal that his coming into the West was considered a breach of 'etiquette', yet was sufficiently elven that to this day he still sails the skies with the last silmaril. Obviously this means that he's not a good study case as the fact he's still alive may not necessarily be due to his blood, but rather the will of the Council...

What this means is that there are no children of Elven - Mortal unions on which we could base any kind of predictions.

I can repeat the will of the Council: The Powers that Be will only suffer the union of the Firstborn with the Secondborn a few times through the ages. Basically what this means is that Elves and Men are (not exactly) free to marry, but children of such a union will only be provided with the blessing of the Valar, which will only be given to the greatest heroes of a given age (i.e. there have been a few dozen since the beginning of time who could have entered such a union and been blessed with children [and this includes those of mixed descent]).

As an example Eldarion and his sisters (the children of Aragorn and Arwen) were roughly:
25/64 elven (actually a tad more)
38/64 mortal (a tad less)
1/64 maiar (a tad more)

The above assumes Aragorn was 100% mortal, which he wasn't as the n-th descendant of Elros (were n probably around 50), as Elros and Elrond were 9,6,1/16 elven,mortal,maiar. Which means Aragorn was more like 1/1000000000000000000000 Maiar, etc. [not that this really changes his being 100% mortal by much though some say even the smallest drop is a lot more than none...]

If someone wants more info I'll continue this. I can disassemble all the non-pure elven or pure mortal unions if someone wants me to... (there's only a couple)

Personally I beleive that were an Elf and Mortal to have children (with our blessing obviously) then the children would be neither (or rather treat like elven or mortal) until their coming of age, depending on whether they were raised in a mortal city/town/village or in an elven environment (notice - there were/are no mixed cities). At the coming of age (basically whenever they move out from home) they would be given a choice to be counted among one or the other - however, this choice would mean they must remain with their chosen people (ie if you choose elvenkind you remain in elven cities, otherwise you remain and live with the mortal men). Clear enough?

Not that this matters - there are no mortal men (or women) currently alive worthy of such a blessing (the few that are worthy are either too old too have children or have sworn celibacy) - so there is absolutely no problem, and thus there really ain't much point in this discussion as anything other than a pure hypothetical one.

May the stars shine brightly down upon thee,
and fill your heart and soul with hope.

[Varda]

In the time it took me to write my post a couple more replies appeared (there was only one reply when I started writing)

[Andreth]

I won't rephrase this into my own words because, honestly, I'm too damn lazy, so I'll let the professor speak for himself and you can take it as you will.

This is from Letter #153 Sept. 1954:

"I spupose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological - which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring - even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil. But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' - not eternal but not dying by 'old age' - and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World - and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all."

The only comment I want to throw out is that he says these are the only cases 'in my legends' - so, from a fanfic point of view, some could take that as meaning that there were things that went on outside the scope of what was recorded in these imaginary histories. There are so many things in Tolkien's world that are really just a matter of perspective.

[Varda]

[BittenBuggy]

Ahem...thanks for that math lesson Varda

So basically, what everyone said was that if a human (not Numenorian decent) decided to mate with an elf (of full blood) that child would be mortal, and live a normal, mortal life?

Well, that makes for boring fanfiction. Might have to spice that up a bit and call it elaboration. (Have to side with Andreth on this one, smart lass that one)

Thanks for your help everybody!

[Viv]

[Varda]

[BittenBuggy]

Varda dearest, I think you are incapable of a one sentance post And yes, I suppose it will have to be uncanonical (that's a new word, gotta use that more often)

Thanks again

[Varda]

[Varda]