The Profs morbid fascination?

inglor · Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:20 pm Post subject: The Profs morbid fascination?

Morgoth's feet were hewn from him before he was chained and then thown in the Void

Gwindor's brother's (whose name escapes me) feet were cut off before he was excecuted

Maedhros and Beren lost a hand

Frodo lost a finger (things seemed to not be as drastic past the First Age)

The missing limb theme seemed quite prominent in the Profs writing. I understand Gwindor's brother, the orcs putting him in as much pain as possible before executing him, but the reasoning for Morgoth, Maedhros and Beren has me stumped...oops sorry for the bad pun, but you get the idea.

Thoughts, comments?

Neniel · Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject:

Well, Tolkien did go to war and things were pretty ugly back then, so I'm certain he got stuk with some very... interesting images and memories. What I'm trying to say is that he lived first hand the horrors of war and what we see in his books is but a very small measure of the reality he experienced. Considering the fact that the Silmarillion covers millennia of fighting, things could be worse...

But this is an extremely interesting topic. Perhaps some of our experts ( Very Happy

) know more!

SpaceWeavil · Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject:

One thing it might be is that Tolkien drew on a lot of mythological sources, and the idea of having bits cut off runs through a lot of old folk tales and old religions. Eyborg will probably be able to give more details than I can here (without looking anything up), but I'm sure there are several examples in Norse mythology.

The main one that comes to my mind though would be Celtic myth - there losing a limb was equated with losing power; the person was no longer whole and therefore would lose status. The main example would be Nuada (Irish) or Llud Llaw Ereint (Welsh), who was king until he lost his hand in battle, after which he was forced to abdicate as no one who was not whole could rule. He only returned (to depose the tyrannical ruler who replaced him) when the divine smith of the Gods, Diannecht, created a silver hand for him. There was a thread about this somewhere else, but not specifically on the losing limbs bit. I just remember going on about the Tuatha de Danaan and such before.

I'm not saying that in every case, Tolkien used that device to make his characters powerless or what have you, but I think if he was drawing on sources where this sort of thing goes on a lot, he might have been more inclined to write it in.

NancyBrooke · Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject:

Not to be too gruesome or anything, but it's also just a great fiction device, very dramatic. An amputation is a living wound, one that never 'heals,' never goes away, is obvious to others, and doesn't kill you. It's a exterior manifestation of interior pain, and vice versa, sort of.

NeumeIndil · Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject:

Losing a limb like that, aside from the pain, would also have severe psychological impact. To have been rendered so powerless or helpless that someone could just hack parts off of you would be a huge blow to the ego and really mess with one's self-perception. Also the phenomenon of phantom pains, feeling the limb when it's not there, would be a long-term reminder of that loss and powerlessness. It's a great torture device for those reasons, not that I'm speaking from personal experience or anything. Hiding behind the sofa

inglor · Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:14 am Post subject:

Thanks SW, I had forgotten about the Tuatha de Danaan. The powerless aspect definitely applies to when Morgoth was finally whipped. That part makes much more sense now

Eyborg · Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject:

Spacey was wondering if I could come up with something from Norse mythology: Well, the only person I remember right now is Týr, the god of war, who got his hand bitten off by Fenrisúlfur, when the latter was bound.

But Nancy is right, losing a limb is just one of very common themes in fantasy and other literature. And also in modern movies - I just can't help but remember poor Luke Skywalker... Bawl

NancyBrooke · Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:27 pm Post subject:

Odin only had one eye, right?

Prometheus, as punishment for stealing fire, has his liver ripped out and eaten by an eagle night after night. Yucchh.

Eruanna · Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:59 am Post subject: Reply

Was Gwindor's brother Gelmir? Question

I think the horror of having a limb hacked off while alive is considerate the ultimate punishment. I think Tolkien used these devices to show the real barbarity of war.

Celebrimbor's body, after Sauron finished with him, was used as a war banner. Think of it: the body of a noble, beautiful elf--defiled and abused--waved about as a banner of ultimate evil. Crying or Very sad

This was featured/hinted at in the Kevin Costner film version of "Robin Hood."

This is depressing....

As for being whole and the right to rule, think about the Latin King of Jersusalem, Baldwin IV. As a leper, he died blind, disabled, with his face, hands and feet eaten away. Yet still, he was delegating from his bed two days before his death...and the poor dear was not yet 24 years of age. Bawl

--Eruanna