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Ellbee
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 172
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 Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I dunno, I think the charming conceit that Tolkien was only translating a history rather than writing fantasy fiction leaves lots of wiggle room. Everyone knows that things never happened exactly the way the history books and the legends say.
And anyway, some of us don't consider anything but what Tolkien wrote and finished and published with his own two hands to be pure canon. So much of it was unfinished and contradictory and heavily edited with who-knows-what agenda, I can't really consider myself bound by it. For myself, I take what I can use and run with it.
So in other words, write what you like, and if you do it well enough, if you make it plausible and consistent (something that Tolkien himself didn't always manage), you can sell your readers even if you take some liberties.
-Ell
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If anyone's looking for me, I'll be in the van with Eomer. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Varda wrote: | | Besides I don't really agree that Tolkien stating in my legends allows for such an occurence to happen outside his legends yet still in Arda - I believe that by legends he meant the entire imaginative construct of Arda and not the actual tales that he wrote down. |
Somewhere Tolkien says that he is merely acting as a narrator, compiling all these texts he discovered by various chronicle keepers, and that, like with any other historical work, there were gaps in them that had to be left to the imagination and differences in the records based upon who was the writer. I can't remember offhand where it was and my laziness is still too dominant at the moment for me to go look for it. I'm sure I'll remember it in a week or two, when I don't need it anymore. But I do have one passage handy from Morgoth's Ring, which I had looked up recently for another discussion. In it, Tolkien is discussing the seemingly selfish appearance of the Valar and how it should not be taken at face value:
"The appearance of a selfish faineance in the Valar in the mythology as told is (though I have not explained it or commented on it) I think only an 'appearance', and one which we are apt to accept as truth, since we are all in some degree affected by the Shadow and the lies of their enemy, the Calumniator. It has to be remembered that the 'mythology' is represented as being two stages removed from a true record: it is based first upon Elvish records and lore about the Valar and their own dealings with them; and these have reached us (fragmentarily) only through relics of Numenorean (human) traditions derived from the Eldar, in the earlier parts, though for later times supplemented by anthropocentric histories and tales. These, it is true, came down through the 'Faithful' and their descendants in Middle-earth, but could not altogether escape the darkening of the picture due to the hostility of the rebellious Numenoreans to the Valar.
Even so, and on the grounds of the stories as received, it is possible to view the matter otherwise..." then he goes into a discussion about the decision to exile the Noldor and how there were different ways to view Manwe's decision on that.
So, while this information isn't exactly pertinent to the mixed marriages or their offspring, I used it as an analogy to show that the recorded history of Middle-earth was colored by those who recorded it, just as real earth history is, and that even the professor could find different ways to interpret his own work.
I think 'canon' is a word that should be used subjectively because there are too many holes and grey areas for any absolute to be set in place, and eventually the good majority of what is and isn't canon boils down to pure personal preferences. There are some things that are just out-and-out out of place, but there are many things that are based on our own interpretations. To each his own, is the way I look at it.
So basically BB, (do you mind if I call you BB?  ) if you want to write about a half-Elven offspring then I say go for it. Heck, maybe part of the story can even be about her discovery of what traits and qualities he/she inherits from either parent, and eventually what options are offered, if any. I think, as writers, we're allowed to use our imaginations from time to time.  |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | I think, as writers, we're allowed to use our imaginations from time to time. |
Of course, I did state in another post that it is effectively impossible to remain 100% true to Tolkien canon - for precisely the reasons you listed: a) too much of it, b) not all of it published, c) it was evolving and is sometimes inconsistent in and of itself, d) it's already been coloured by CJK, e) many writers don't have much more than the basic 5 (hobbit+lotr+silm) books and many even lack the Silmarillion, f) the stories as written down are not written by an all-knowing narrator but by internal story characters, g) etc...
But I did provide information as to what I consider canon in this particular case. Feel free to expand on it, change it, ignore it, replace it, etc... In the end a story is good or bad not because it is strict canon instead of AU, but because it is well written, has no spelling errors and grammatical mistakes, is interesting, has good characterisation, praises me sufficiently and doesn't show me in a negative light [ uhmm, did I really say that out loud, quick, Scribe, erase that, not that the Lady of Light could be shown in a negative spotlight  I shine to brightly by myself]  etc, etc, etc. Oh, and good stories involve elves, and magic, and romance, and a little lime, and handsome nude elves covered with whipped cream and chocolate [ uhmm, erase that, I meant Manwe, really, that's what I meant, he makes a very handsome elf].
I think it's getting late 
So as always feel free to ignore my posts, my advice, and my rants. Just because I am who I am doesn't make me always right [see? I'm humble ].
 Oh, and petitions for the blessing of unions between Elves and Mortal Men can be directed to the Council, through eletronic means here on this forum. See, we're modern and we're changing with the times Please include full geneaology at least three generations back from any ancestors of non-pure blood. Please also include written CV of both participant including all world-saving, peace-improving, wisdom-saving actions of the individuals. It is falsely rumored that an offering of incense on the night of the full moon to me will improve chances for acceptance - after all even though I do like lilac, I would never force some ritual on the night of the full moon, I like moonless nights the best, especially nights of the new moon, because then the stars are brightest and I do enjoy gazing down upon the stars.
May the stars never lose their light, and shine unto the end of time. |
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Ellbee
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 172
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Varda wrote: | Oh, and petitions for the blessing of unions between Elves and Mortal Men can be directed to the Council, through eletronic means here on this forum. See, we're modern and we're changing with the times Please include full geneaology at least three generations back from any ancestors of non-pure blood. Please also include written CV of both participant including all world-saving, peace-improving, wisdom-saving actions of the individuals.
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Gosh, that's an awful lot like filing taxes, and would put me, if I were one of the Wise, right out of the mood. Couldn't we just write some hot smut instead? 
-Ell
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If anyone's looking for me, I'll be in the van with Eomer. |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Ellbee wrote: | | Gosh, that's an awful lot like filing taxes, and would put me, if I were one of the Wise, right out of the mood. Couldn't we just write some hot smut instead? -Ell |
Nope, sorry, bureaucracy is unavoidable - how else are we supposed to keep the world running and in good order? You think smut would keep the world going? Besides, it's also a test - if you're truly in love, you'll take the time to get through all the red-tape. Tough, it's life. You should see all the forms we have to fill in for Eru, now he's a real slave driver. [I think he makes us do his part as well and he just remains inaccessible and is probably laughing his head off at our expense]
May the stars shine brightly,
so as to provide sufficient light,
for filling forms in,
also at night. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Ahem... smut DOES keep the world going. No smut, no babies, no population for a bureaucracy to rule over...
So WOO HOO for sex! (But nobody expects a goddess to like sex, it's ok, don't feel bad. We mere mortals... endulging it such trivial matters of the flesh. Oh, shame on us, bad us!)
_________________
-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, Varda might not own up to it, but I read in the books somewhere that the Ainur liked to take the forms of Elves and Mortals to enjoy the things they could do in those bodies. Of course, I think they were talking about eating and drinking at feasts and such in the section that I read, but it can apply to other things, too! Who knows what really goes on in Valinor behind those closed silver gates?
I hope our resident goddess isn't put off by the thought of sex, or, Varda dear, you might want to skip my next chapter. It's got Ainur smut with none other than your daughter and Sauron, and I wouldn't want to offend a goddess's sense of propriety. I think the consequences would be very unpleasant.  |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Varda wrote: | | Of course, I did state in another post that it is effectively impossible to remain 100% true to Tolkien canon - |
And I'm very sorry, Varda - I quoted your post, but my post truly wasn't directed at you. I've just seen so many new authors get overwhelmed by feeling the need to stick to 'canon' and it sometimes ends up costing people a lot of creativity. I just like to reassure fellow authors in cases like these that, for a writer, sometimes imagination outweighs canon. So, I apologize profusely for not mentioning that in my message.
Please don't turn me into something unnatural.  |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Ahem... smut DOES keep the world going. No smut, no babies, no population for a bureaucracy to rule over... |
Nope that's sex - sex keeps the world populated by making babies.
Smut is more - you'd never say animals smut (or whatever the proper verb form would be). Animals rut and/or have sex - and they spread just as well as mortals.
Besides you don't need a population for bureaucracy. It functions just as well in the void - I should know - I was there at the very beginning and it was already there before us taking our names down on a 'piece of parchment'...
| Quote: | | So WOO HOO for sex! (But nobody expects a goddess to like sex, it's ok, don't feel bad. We mere mortals... endulging it such trivial matters of the flesh. Oh, shame on us, bad us!) |
Now, I wouldn't call sex a trivial matter of the flesh - after all as you have already noticed - it is a vital function of any advanced biological entity.
And besides I have a healthy son and daughter, so I can't exactly turn my back on it and say it's bad, can I?
Although there is a lot more than pure physical sex - the true height of passion comes during the merging/mingling of the spiritual forms/souls/essences. Now that is a rush. The physical part is just mere foreplay.
Hmm, maybe I divulged a little bit too much.
May you never learn of the other vital ingredient which was used as the essence of the stars. |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | And I'm very sorry, Varda - I quoted your post, but my post truly wasn't directed at you. I've just seen so many new authors get overwhelmed by feeling the need to stick to 'canon' and it sometimes ends up costing people a lot of creativity. I just like to reassure fellow authors in cases like these that, for a writer, sometimes imagination outweighs canon. So, I apologize profusely for not mentioning that in my message. |
Apology accepted - although not really necessary
But you are absolutely right.
Canon in Tolkien is absolutely enormous and entirely new when compared to other known mythologies/worlds. Plus it's been ripped of in so many ways by so many others that you often start off with false preconceptions about many subjects (like elven ears, or magic in general, or dwarven women, ...)
| Quote: | | Please don't turn me into something unnatural. |
Now, now, if anyone's going to turn into something it's me, I still owe you comments on your letter - I just have to get down to it instead of browsing these forums all night long.
May clouds never cover the stars you seek to guide you. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Stick in the mud 
_________________
-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | Hey, Varda might not own up to it, but I read in the books somewhere that the Ainur liked to take the forms of Elves and Mortals to enjoy the things they could do in those bodies. Of course, I think they were talking about eating and drinking at feasts and such in the section that I read, but it can apply to other things, too! Who knows what really goes on in Valinor behind those closed silver gates? |
Food is good, wine is very good, feasts are better, and elves are just plain scrumptious. Especially tall, handsome, airy ones. Of course seducing them is a lot of fun - I just don't understand why they always turn out to be the same person... but then there must have[/i] been some reason why I married him - so maybe it does make a little sense?
As for what goes on behind closed gates - well, wouldn't you want to know... But, well, elves don't get sick and are immortal so there's lots of time for feasts, and songs, and dance and other no less enjoyable things.
| Quote: | | I hope our resident goddess isn't put off by the thought of sex, or, Varda dear, you might want to skip my next chapter. It's got Ainur smut with none other than your daughter and Sauron, and I wouldn't want to offend a goddess's sense of propriety. I think the consequences would be very unpleasant. |
Now, as much as sex doesn't put me off in the slightest (at least as long as it's done tastefully), I'm not sure if reading about my daughter doing it from afar is the brightest idea. I probably should make sure my dear Manwe doesn't read it or there might not be a Sauron left to terrorize the later ages (uhm, I didn't let that prophecy slip now, did I? you've all known about that, haven't you? no? ). On the other hand that peeking tom will probably have seen it all from afar. Well, anyway, if any Eagles drop by to rip Annatar apart or if lightning strikes him from a clear sky (or a non clear one for that matter) you'll know who's guilty.
I'd much rather see my little baby get together with Elrond - at least he has a decent destiny planned out for him - and he does have some (although not a lot) Maia blood. Alas, it is not to be. Poor dear.
May the brilliance of starshine brighten your night. |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Stick in the mud |
And who precisely are you calling a 'stick in the mud', young woman?
May the stars guide thee in circles so you'll never find your way. |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Stick in the mud |
Hey! Stop antagonizing the Vala who decided not to transform me into something abnormal - like an Orc, or a Mewlip, or Pee Wee Herman. |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | Hey! Stop antagonizing the Vala who decided not to transform me into something abnormal - like an Orc, or a Mewlip, or Pee Wee Herman. |
The proper though seldom used by Elves and Mortals alike term here would be 'Valie'. Although to an English speaking person undoubtebly Vala sounds better.
Of course 'Valie' ain't perfect to begin with as it's an imperfect simplification of the valarin word, which can't exactly be easily written down due to the wealth of information also contained in its inflection. We never did bother with devising a written form for the language (maybe we should have?) - the entire language was one large experiment - after all what use is language to telepathic beings.
As for transforming, hmm, kappas and jigglypuffs are an all-time favourite.
Oh, you should see Urd as a pink cuddly-wiggly jigglypuff after she made a rude comment about Freya (unknowingly) in her presence. That was so cuuute and *kawaii*. 
May the whirling stars above cause thee to reflect upon thine actions. |
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