[Robbie]

We got a e-mail letter, sorry, a “file”, which ends "PS: This document has been recorded and cc’d to all moderators of OSA. This document is considered Public Domain".

As it wasn't cc'd to all moderators of OSA (this person hasn't a clue who all moderators are) we'll save her the time and we thought we'd share – at the same time you can see the type of crap we have to deal with behind the scenes to keep this site running.

WARNING 1) This is going to be a long post
WARNING 2) There are references to slash in this thread.

Scenario (in brief - the full text is in later posts):

- The member, who signs the letter "Lore aka kwannom" and sends from e-mail address "Lorena Novas" <kwannom@yahoo.com.br> politely wrote to us to indicate that a story she was writing will contain elements that could be considered slash. Could we please offer a verdict as to if it was too slashy for the site?
- After discussing amongst the administrators we advised that it was, and suggested she adjust the story or not post at this archive. After all, there are thousands of places to park your story out there.
- She enquired if she could post the remainder of the story, and insert a link to another site where the slashy part was contained.
- We advised that this would only mislead readers who would get to chapter 19 (or so) and suddenly find the story objectionable.
- We eventually got the lawyery letter advising that our “moderator called Do” is very rude (damn good job I didn’t answer ). As such, she felt it was appropriate to put all our responses “into the public domain”. So, we accept that our information is already in the public domain (thanks for asking, Lorena) and post the full story here.

So please, when there are problems and website administrators get shitty or short with you, or when sites get pulled because they are too much work, just remember that not only does it cost money to run websites, not only does it costs valuable time, admins also get dragged through the mud with this kind of stuff. And believe me, this is by no means the worst of what we have to deal with (but we respect people’s privacy…).

Well, folks, here is the story.

(Note – this thread remains open to allow the member to respond if she wishes.)

Edit: please note the author goes by the name "kwannom" on this site. The member "Lorena" has nothing to do with this.

[Robbie]

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:39:20 +0000 (GMT)
From: "Lorena Novas" <kwannom@yahoo.com.br>
Subject: Having doubts about a scene in my fic
To: support@openscrolls.net

Hello,

I'm sending this email because I am having doubts about a scene in my fic The Golden Mask. Though the story is not slash, this scene contains slash, and some graphic discussion of sex. So, I would like to ask your permission to post the link to the story's chapter in an author's note, instead of posting it on OSA, so you don't archive the scene there.

Best regards,

Lore aka kwannom

In love with Derfel Cadarn, Saxon Captain of the armies of Arthur ap Uther;
Infatuated with Hephaestion, Macedonian General and the lover of Alexander the Great Protector of Wilrog and Haldir's worst nightmare

[Robbie]

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:00:55 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Having doubts about a scene in my fic
From: "Open Scrolls Archive" <support@openscrolls.net>
To: "Lorena Novas" <kwannom@yahoo.com.br>

> Hello,
>
> I'm sending this email because I am having doubts about a scene in my
fic
> The Golden Mask. Though the story is not slash, this scene contains
slash,
> and some graphic discussion of sex. So, I would like to ask your
> permission to post the link to the story's chapter in an author's
note,
> instead of posting it on OSA, so you don't archive the scene there.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lore aka kwannom

Nope. Sorry.

Even if the chapter or scene wouldn't be archived here, the rest of the story would be and that would be misleading the readers. We don't think many readers would appreciate starting this and getting into it and finding out all of a sudden that it's turning to slash on them and that they can carry on reading it at another location, or skip the slash altogether but lose the continuity of the story in doing so.

This site is clearly labelled as no slash content. This means slash overall, not limited to full blown slash stories but also including the ones that only jump into the style for a chapter or two. Those stories are still slash even for a little while.

Support Team
Open Scrolls Archive

[Robbie]

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:29:46 -0300 (ART)
From: "Lorena Novas" <kwannom@yahoo.com.br>
Subject: Re: Having doubts about a scene in my fic
To: "Open Scrolls Archive" <support@openscrolls.net>

Then, if the answer is no, let me explain it again before you get a final veredict.

This is a guy and a woman talking, but the guy is telling what he'd do if the woman were a man. The story is NOT evolving into slash. It is just a discussion.

Here is the scene for your evaluation:

< I would have desired you even if you were a real Man, > Haldir said, his face a few inches away from hers, his blue eyes sparkling. < I desire what you are – brave, stubborn, intelligent - no matter your gender, > he whispered while he tried to control his anger and frustration.
(...)
< Do you want to know what I would do to you if you were a Man? > Haldir whispered in her ear while he undid her ponytail, letting her glorious hair fall around her shoulders. Gods, I love her hair… He entwined his hands on the black curls and held her head still. Her hands clutched the edge of the table until her knuckles became white. < I would make love to you, > he said smirking, his warm breath tickling her ear. Haldir smiled at the increasing pace of her heartbeat. < I would take you in my mouth and drink your seed until there was nothing left. Then I would take you. Slowly, > he said parting Haleth’s legs gently and closing the distance between their bodies without actually touching. < Would you have liked that if you were a Man? >
(...)
< But that is not the end, > he said quietly, his own control nearly slipping from his grasp at the sight of her brown eyes so full of desire and anger. < Then I would take you in me. I would feel you inside me as I have never let anybody do. You would fill me like I have never felt before and I would scream your name while you took me over and over… deeper and deeper… harder… and harder… >
(...)
Haldir looked at the panting woman in front of him, admiring the spark of fury in her brown eyes and her clenched jaw. < Of course, none of this would happen, because even then you would be ashamed of me and would not know what you wanted, > he said coldly. < Good night, m’lady. I hope you have a pleasant night’s sleep. Alone. >
I'm waiting for your opinion regarding this issue.
Sincerelly,
Lore aka kwannom

[Robbie]

Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:56:52 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Having doubts about a scene in my fic
From: "Open Scrolls Archive" <support@openscrolls.net>
To: "Lorena Novas" <kwannom@yahoo.com.br>

Hi,

> Then, if the answer is no, let me explain it again before you get a final
> veredict.
>
> This is a guy and a woman talking, but the guy is telling what he'd do if
> the woman were a man. The story is NOT evolving into slash. It is just a
> discussion.

The story may not be evolving into slash but that scene, that 'discussion'
within it, is slashy nonetheless.

And I've also been warned that your current last chapter contains some slash element. What part of 'no-slash allowed' do you not understand on this archive? A Naked Beauty does have a woman (Dalla) trying to seduce your heroine Haleth, though unsuccessfully. I can see there's very little touching, and it's not really graphically described, but that's certainly slashy. Since Haleth pulls away and this scene might be to only illustratethat she is not so inclined, I guess we could let it be, but leave it at that. Stop bringing this slash slant in future chapters or the story will have to be pulled. OSA is simply not the place for it.

Here's a discussion we've had about what is acceptable on this archive and what is not. Obviously, it's hard to draw the line, but it should help a bit.

http://www.openscrolls.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=100&highlight=slash

(If you don't want to read the whole thread, scroll down first page to the tenth post.)

It's also been put that way by Scribe in the past:

"It is okay that if a non-canon character is gay. You can imply it, you can mention that his sexual orientation is gay because they do exist in the world, however, there will be no graphic sexual representation with their significant others or any canon character. As far as I am concerned, Tolkien wrote Aragorn and Co as straight and on this archive they will be.

I mean this is a hard call. Ideally I prefer the non-canon's sexual orientation to be made in passing without undue focus on it. You know like Legolas saying,

"I do not think Bob is interested in Arwen, Aragorn. He prefers the company of men."

"Oh, I shall rest easy then," Aragorn answers... and that's it.

So, very, very slight slash references are allowed in the sense of establishing a non-canon's orientation for the characterisation process but that's as far as it goes. People don't come here to read any more than that."

I hope this clarifies the issue.

As for our decision regarding the Haldir/Haleth scene, what we would allow is for you to have the story as a whole without that scene at all (or that scene reworked in some way so it's not slashy - Haldir would have to be talking about doing another woman, not a man) and then in an author's note you could mention that, initially, the story contained some slash and if people are interested they can go see the 'original' wherever you have it archived. Makes sense? If you can't rework that scene or do without it, I'm afraid the whole story will have to go.

You have to understand that we will not allow our readers to be misled into getting into this fic thinking it's non-slash and then let you spring Haldir on them, waxing lyrical about sticking it to another man. To me, if I don't like slash, if it makes me gag, or even if I like it but choose to read on OSA to get away from it for a while, reading that scene would really tick me off and I'm sure it would others too. What Haldir depicts... these are not images I'd want to see if I'm expecting to read a non-slash story. And non-slash stories is all OSA readers expect to read.

So let us know what you'll be planning on doing based on those restrictions.

Sincerely,

do.
-
Support Team
Open Scrolls Archive

[Robbie]

Date: Sat, October 15, 2005 2:59 am
Subject: Re: Having doubts about a scene in my fic
From: "Lorena Novas" <kwannom@yahoo.com.br>
To: "Open Scrolls Archive" <support@openscrolls.net>

Greetings,

My answer is in the attachment. I would like to have my membership withdrawn as soon as possible. If you wish to talk to me about this issue, you already have my e-mail address.

Respectfully yours,

Lorena Novas

[The word document entitled “02Edited_nbsp_OSA_nbsp_reply.doc” is reproduced below and also contained copies of all the e-mails posted above.]

Greetings,

As a lawyer and a journalist in real life, I had to reply to this email as it should be responded to. I joined this site at its very beginning. Of course I know the rules (after being a member for over two years or, at least I did. If not, then I should have my Lawyer’s diploma burned…) if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have emailed [footnote: You can read all the emails at the end of this letter/file] the moderators with my issue in the first place. This is why moderators exist. According to the SAEOPP Moderator’s handbook, the word ‘moderator’ means, “a group facilitator assisting the presenter and guiding the group through the session”. So, according to this definition, members like me should direct their questions to such individuals, asking them for guidance, and should expect to be treated with the same fairness and respect we paid them.

As members, we, of course, must follow the site rules. Moderators should do so as well. Dealing with people requires politeness, and not responses such as, “What part of 'no-slash allowed' do you not understand on this archive?” Such was the response I received from the Open Scrolls Archive (OSA) moderator called Do. You all must know that the Internet is an environment where one’s own words can turn against you. So, you must watch your language carefully, before letting something like this slip. If you can’t contain your temper or are not prepared to deal with individuals in the public domain, then you should give your position to people more suited for the job.

The slash subject

Slash is a touchy subject on this site and it was the first reason that made me join it, because I despise slash between LOTR characters. I do not consider Chapter 18 of my story to contain slash content. There is no male/male, female/female pairing in it and the actual act of sex doesn’t take place. However, I had doubts concerning chapter 19, I thought that it might be interpreted as slash, though it is a male/female relationship and there is no actual sex. That is why I wanted to host the chapter some where else and put the link for it on OSA.

According to your own rules:
The archive may not HOST works of slash but we cannot ignore its existence in the fandom. Thoughtful articles investigating this genre as well as others are welcomed on this archive.
Therefore, there is nothing in the site rules stating that posting links for suspicious content is forbidden, only that OSA will not archive slash or host it. Though there is a no-slash policy, it isn’t technically outlined.
Putting in a link for a chapter containing a scene that contains content that may not be permitted by the site, doesn’t mean hosting so it doesn’t break the rule that says “The archive may not HOST works of slash”. In order to offer such proof, here is a definition of hosting:
“Hosting simply refers to where does your web site get delivered or where it runs from. For a web site to exist and be accessible to the world, it must be on a web server. That web server must always be connected to the Internet and running so that your website is available to anyone, at any time, around the world. Hosting is just who or what machine is going to be doing that for your site.” < Available at http://needmoredesigns.com/support/idx/4/027/article/ >


CONCLUSION

In spite of being in the right concerning the link issue, I am withdrawing my story from OSA, along with my membership, and other stories I have there, because of the very tactless and completely uncaring way in which I was treated by the moderator called Do. I am not even touching the slash subject here. It is a very grey area, and my chapters 18 and 19 have very specific situations that could produce a whole article about “Chapter 19 is it slash or is it not?”. I couldn’t decide about it myself, however, I know I despise slash in LOTR. As Scribe has rightly stated, “Tolkien wrote Aragorn and Co. as straight.”

For future members – As for any new members joining the site – you ought to clearly outline your rules concerning slash, as well as find moderators that have experience in dealing with people, in order to avoid situations like this and a massive exodus from the site. Believe me, you have no idea what people say about OSA, though I do. And to think that I even defended OSA when many of the writers on this site, past and present, warned me about your rude ways over the years… Shame on you!

Respectfully yours,

Lorena Novas

PS: This document has been recorded and cc’d to all moderators of OSA. This document is considered Public Domain.

[Robbie]

Date: Sat, October 15, 2005 7:36 am
Subject: Re: Having doubts about a scene in my fic
From: "Open Scrolls Archive" <support@openscrolls.net>
To: "Lorena Novas" kwannom@yahoo.com.br

> Greetings,
>
> My answer is in the attachment. I would like to have my membership
> withdrawn as soon as possible. If you wish to talk to me about this issue,
> you already have my e-mail address.
>
> Respectfully yours,
>
> Lorena Novas

Lorena,

Just so we're clear... I'm not (and neither are Scribe & Robbie) a moderator here; I'm an admin. I co-own and co-run this site. So you can save your definitions of what's what in terms of moderators and what they should do and how they should handle your person with kid gloves.

Also, none of us do something without the other two's agreement.

As for slash, you say you're not even touching the subject of it in your response but in fact you try and define it and go as far as saying that because no sex or the actual act of sex doesn't take place in the two scenes discussed in previous e-mails that your story contains no slash. For a lawyer, you don't seem to even notice when you contradict your own words - unless that's a prerequisite for your job. Personally, I call an attempt at defining something 'touching' on it.

We've always stated that what is slash and what isn't and where to draw the line was a very blurred area. Everyone has their views and opinions on that, on what slash is, on where is starts and stops, but for the purpose of this archive, we tried to define what is acceptable for OSA. You came to us with a question (as apparently our stated rules and guidelines aren't clear enough - thanks for pointing that out) and I took the time to reply, giving links and pasting comments that had come up over the years in the forum on the subject here at OSA to help you see where we stand. I cannot help it if it isn't the answer you wanted. But, it is where OSA stands.

Also, as a lawyer, if you're used to any dealings by e-mail or letter, you should know better than to assume the tone of whomever you're corresponding with. Maybe you wanted to see rudeness in my reply since we did not agree to your request, I don't know. But know this, there was no intention to be rude. There was surprise though that in two chapters you were putting a slash slant on the main characters when OSA is a non-slash site. And as I said, although we might have accepted Dalla's scene for certain reasons (even though you describe female fingers touching another woman's wet sex), Haldir's, on the other hand, is simply too descriptive of slash - in this case, penetration between two men as well as fellatio. You don't agree with that assessment? Well, we just have to agree to disagree on that.

To be honest, we're sorry to see you go, but it's your choice just like it's ours to not host slash stories or slashy scenes in certain chapters. A big impressive 'lawyer lingo' letter in a Word doc format won't scare us into changing our policy.

And while we're on the subject of hosting and slash content (and that you seem to like to quote a lot - or misquote, in this case), may I direct you to go re-read what I sent you. The discussion of slash (as well as slash articles, essays, links to writing tips or whatever) that we will allow on the site is for the forum only (go see 2nd post in the same thread given last time: http://www.openscrolls.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=100&highlight=slash). Nowhere do we say that it's admissible in the story archive, but on the forum only and with a clear warning.

Your suggestion of linking to an outside spot for the slashy element of the Haldir's scene might appear as a good idea at first glance, but after discussion, we decided it wasn't appropriate for the reasons I stated in my previous e-mail to you. It is as simple as that. You don't have to agree with our decision, of course, but this is where we stand. Now, you're not prepared to compromise and have a non-slash version of that scene on the site so the story can stay? That's entirely your choice. And instead of just taking down that one story and posting it on a more appropriate archive you'd rather pack it all and leave OSA? There's not much we can do about it. We won't change our mind on this just to keep you around, as that would be bending the rules and be unfair on the other authors, as well as our readership.

do.
-
Support Team
Open Scrolls Archive

[Robbie]

End of messages (to date).

This thread remains open for the person in question to respond; please don't make additional posts here.

If you' think we've acted improperly, please let us know at support@openscrolls.net of feel free to open another thread and post there. Afterall, we run this site for everyone, so if we're doing it badly, we can take it on the chin.

[dolarabee]

For the sake of consistency, since the author has now taken her stories down, I realise nobody can see for themselves that scene between the two female characters we are referring to in the correspondance above. So here it is:

[kwannom]

Greetings Robbie,

First, I would like to thank you for sparing me the effort of posting my e-mails on this forum. As I have told all mods and site owners, the material and the e-mails I sent to you are of public domain. This action is necessary for the members to discuss the way communications between the site owners, members and mods work and how it could be improved.

I would like to remind you, since it may have been forgotten, that the point of this discussion is not the possible rule-breaking of my story. Do herself said that scene would pass since there was no sex, it was only character development. When it came to a point where some might think it slash, or get offended by it, I came to the mods with the problem and my possible solutions, asking their thoughts on the matter.

After I sent the first e-mail and got a negative answer, I sent another where I explained the situation for them, since by the first description there might have been misleading, as you all can see by the e-mails posted here. If the mods had simply said no, I'd withdraw the story and that'd be the end of it. What caused the polemic was the rudeness of the admin's reply.

I reaffirm my request. I want to withdraw my membership.

Respectfully yours,

Lorena Novas Esq.

[dolarabee]

[Neniel]

Dear kwannom

I am not certain that my input here is welcome, or even justified for that matter, but I have read the posts above and felt like expressing my own opinions on the subject as well. I can only hope my words will not be taken the wrong way.

To begin with, I had been reading your story "The Golden Mask", and even though I can't remember if I had reviewed or not (lurking unfortunately is a long-time nasty habit), I can honestly say that I fairly enjoyed it quite a bit and always kept an eye out for new chapters.

As it happens, due to a combination of events, I never did get to read chapter 18, with the f/f scene, or a couple of chapters before that I think, so I was taken completely by surprise when I came across this thread.

The surprise was not a pleasant one. There are people who would rather not read about certain things. Even in sites where slash material is allowed, there are explicit warnings about the nature of the content from the beginning of the story, so that people would not accidentally come across such scenes. Imagine how much more caution should be taken in a proclaimed slash-free site such as OSA.

Honestly, after having watched and read the story for so long, I would have missed even any warnings added afterwards (although I don't remember any in the story's summary under the title link) and would have gone ahead to read the scenes in question. And then what? I am not an 'innocent' when it comes to slash, I know almost everyone has come across it since it seems to have become a trend in lotr fanfiction, but some people simply choose to not become even more acquainted with it.

So, in the end, I am not particularly interested in whatever debate came up (although I do strongly believe that the owners of a site that is generously hosting our stories deserve a little more respect, we are not doing them a favour by allowing them to post the masterpieces of litterature we come up with) because every person is entitled to their own opinions, but I have my very solid ideas as to the treating of a story as slash. The scenes above are of a completely slashy nature, because even if there was no actual sex scene, the images they portrait are quite distinctly clear, thank you, and details are not being left out in any way.

Let me put it this way. Imagine there was a person that had never read slash before (a teenage member of OSA, let's say, that was reading a high-rated story even though they shouldn't) and comes across your latest chapters... Do you really think your story would not qualify as slash enough simply because it does not contain the exact sex scene, rather have it descirbed?

And then think of another reader who has had enough with the slash material in other sites and comes to OSA simply to avoid that. They could be offended by this sort of writing or simply find this sort of things disturbing. And again they come across your story. Don't you think that the OSA owners were in the right to want to protect such a reader since they officially claim that the site is slash free?

To end this absurdly long post, I think you should not be mad at Robbie/Do/Scribe before thinking of the other members you might be offending as well. Or, even if you really thought you were in the right, have the decency to back down and accept that the people that own this place have reached a decision that is wholly within their own rights, and graciously step back.

With all due respect

Neniel

[Viv]

Whew. When I read the thread title, I thought oh no, here goes Chris T and his cease-and-desist letters... Yay, we live another day to muck up the professor's beautiful world!!