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PoweroftheBook
Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
Location: Appalachin Mountains of North Carolina
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 Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Don't have my copy of the Illiad with me, so I can't look up the exact wording, but you're right, there probably was some sort of meddling on Aphrodite's part to enable Helen to run off with Paris. Me, I'm a romantic at heart, and like to think that there was some real connection between them.
Nevertheless, Helen did protest when Aphrodite ordered her into Paris's chambers after rescuing him from Menelaus. She was sick of war and death that resulted from her decision (or forced decision). Then Aphrodite goes on some goddess power-trip and sends Helen running into Paris's arms out of fear. Probably lucky that their union didn't result in any children, Lord knows they'd probably end up a good-luck sacrifice, just like Iphigenia or poor Polyxena.
Then again, people lived by a different code of conduct back then. One of the main stories of the Iliad is about Achilles not getting his way. As he saw it, when the spoils he was owed for fighting were stolen from him by Agammenon, he had no more reason to fight. Heroes back then did not fight for their countries - they fought for what was owed them as heroes and great warriors, not as loyal countrymen. Morals were different. Only when Achilles's greatest friend was killed did he deign to fight once more.
Using this logic, Paris might have seen how the Greeks were royally screwing over the Trojans in regards to trade routes, and claimed Helen as his due for this wrong. The war was going to start anyway, why not take what was his and be done with it? He does not seem to espouse the conduct of duty like his brother Hector.
And that's what I like about Greek drama. No one's totally good or bad.
Regards,
The Power of the Book  |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| PoweroftheBook wrote: | | For those of you who might not have heard the tale, Discord offered a golden apple 'for the fairest of the goddesses'. Thinking themselves the fairest, Aphrodite, Athena, and Hera asked shepherd boy Paris to choose the fairest. Hera offered him great power if he chose her, Athena offered him great wisdom, should he judge her to be the fairest. Aphrodite promised him the love of the most beautiful woman alive (which happened to be Helen). He, of course, chose Aphrodite. |
First of all, the Greek name of Discord was Eris.
Second of all, this just proves that he really, really, lacked in wisdom and could've used Athena's gift. It is really quite unfortunate that the wise don't really need the gift of wisdom - and those that aren't wise lack the wisdom to make that choice. It's a pity...
May clouds never cover the stars you seek, |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| PoweroftheBook wrote: | | On a side note, I have to wonder if the Amazons will make an appearance in 'Troy'. They fought with the Greeks, didn't they? |
Of course they won't show the Amazons - after all they removed the Gods, and adding Amazons would make this too Xena-ish (I do believe Xena and Gabrielle fought at Troi - maybe they should make a guest appearance?  ). They're obviously trying to wreck a grand tale and fundamentally shift the meaning of the Illiad.
| Quote: | | On yet another side note - there is a made-for-TV-movie called 'Helen of Troy' that came out last year. Although it screwed with the story to a large extent, it was still pretty good. John Rhys-Davies played King Priam...and now Orlando Bloom will play Paris. There's some sort of symmetry here... |
I heard it was tragically pathetic... oh, well.
May I never run out of blessings, lest light leave the world. |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Thuriniel wrote: | | Quite honestly I'm not even sure that Helen truly loved him. I mean, the woman went back with her previous husband after leaving Troy in ruins and lived happily ever after with him (that can be found in the Odyssey, Telemacus visits Menelaus and wife ... the scene made my stomach turn ... I can just imagine Helen: "Paris? Who is Paris? Oh, yeah, that hunk I bedded for ten years ... well, he's history now! I'm back with my real hubby)." I think that Helen always felt that she had been cheated/forced into her marriage to Paris by Aphrodite. |
Yes, that's always what I assumed - that she went against her will - or - under some sort of spell from Aphrodite. Personally I'm not sure if she loved Menelaus before marrying him, but loveless marriages were quite common among royalty and I don't think Menelaus treated her badly, so I expect she may have grown to love him. I was always under the impression that Helen didn't really have any say in the matter - she was probably just trying to stay alive.
| Quote: | | Anyways, back on track, regardless of what it was, in order to marry/love the most beautiful woman alive, he must kidnap her, even though she's married and with a grown up daughter of her own, and take her back to Troy ... and then have his father's kingdom destroyed to ashes, not to mention his mother and sisters raped and sold as slaves, and his brothers killed. |
Love is blind... and that is probably the central motive (as in motivation, not motif) of the Illiad.
May the brilliance of the stars never fade. |
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PoweroftheBook
Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
Location: Appalachin Mountains of North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Of course they won't show the Amazons - after all they removed the Gods, and adding Amazons would make this too Xena-ish (I do believe Xena and Gabrielle fought at Troi - maybe they should make a guest appearance? ). They're obviously trying to wreck a grand tale and fundamentally shift the meaning of the Illiad.
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Careful there, Varda, lest you step on the toes of a devoted Xenite! We bite, you know! (Just Kidding!) 
Yes, Xena and Gabrielle did make an appearance at Troy - though they fought with the Trojans, since Helen was a one-time friend of Xena's. The episode, while stylistically a very good X:WP, really did screw around with the story. That's half the fun in the Xenaverse, having a rubber-band timeline, in which Xena can sway Brutus against Caesar, and coach David on how to kill Goliath. And later - later as in two seasons later (not 10 years!), when Xena had a brief flirtation with Odysseus, they acknowledge that they fought on opposite sides, but are willing to put aside this minor thing in lieu of their more basic instincts for a short time.
In the Xena world, this is what's known as continuity. Ah, the fun!
Per the movie 'Helen of Troy', yes, it was a low-budget disaster. Sometimes those movies are the most fun to watch!
The movie 'Troy' may indeed screw around with the meaning of the tale. But then, with all due respect to PJ, the main meaning of the Lord of the Rings was not Arwen and Aragorn's love story, nor was it the love triangle of between them and Eowyn. But then, so many people won't understand the morals and ethics that drove Achilles to turn from the fight in the Illiad, that they may very well shift the story from that focus, and instead concentrate on what was between Paris and Helen, or Hector and his wife (can't remember her name at the moment!). It could be that the only similarity between the movie and the epic poem is the innovation of the Trojan Horse.
But you know what? I'm still going for the fun of it!
Regards (and a Xena war-cry for your entertainment!),
The Power of the Book |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Nevertheless, Helen did protest when Aphrodite ordered her into Paris's chambers after rescuing him from Menelaus. She was sick of war and death that resulted from her decision (or forced decision). |
I would like to believe as well that Helen and Paris were meant to be ... but Helen's behaviour leads me to believe that she was snatched from her previous husband, probably thanks to Aphrodita's meddling. Even if Aphrodita is the goddess of love, I don't think she could make Helen love Paris if the feeling wasn't there.
If Helen would've truly loved Paris, she would've cut her wrists and die in Troy when the Greeks ravaged the city before she was made to go back to her previous husband (I'm thinking this in terms of Greek tragedy). But she didn't. She just went back to Menelaus and lived with him for the rest of her days.
| Quote: | loveless marriages were quite common among royalty and I don't think Menelaus treated her badly, so I expect she may have grown to love him. I was always under the impression that Helen didn't really have any say in the matter - she was probably just trying to stay alive.
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That has always been my thought on the Menelaus/Helen relationship. Women were thought as property ... a woman like Helen, daughter of Zeus, would've had great value ... but she was still just that, a woman. Helen was probably just looking after herself.
| Quote: | And that's what I like about Greek drama. No one's totally good or bad.
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I think that's a pretty good summary of what Greek drama is! I always had the hardest time choosing between who I liked best: the greeks or the trojans, and I think it's because there was both nobleness and corruption in both sides. A little bit of everything ... just like in real life.
By the way, thanks for the news about "The Calcium Kid" do ... I was wondering if that movie would ever see the light of day  !
Maria
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~ boe an phân pedi ‘lam dadui ~ 
~ everyone should speak a second language ~ |
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PoweroftheBook
Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
Location: Appalachin Mountains of North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Did Helen really love Paris?
Although we can't truly say yes, I don't think the fact that Helen didn't commit suicide upon Paris's death says that she didn't love him. Hector's wife, Andromache, pleaded with her husband not to go to battle, for Cassandra predicted his doom, and she did, it states, truly love him. Yet he went, and Achilles's rage compelled him to kill Hector and drag the body around Troy behind a chariot for two days. Forced to see her beloved husband mutilated so, she cannot suicide yet, for the sake of her toddler son. Now, Cassandra predicts that the babe will be tossed from the walls of Troy to his death, but by that time I think Andromache was well tired of Cassandra's predictions. She stayed for the sake of her son.
Likewise, Helen may have stayed for the sake of Hermione. That, and the fact that Priam was very quick in marrying Helen off to either one of Paris's brothers, or to some high-ranking officer to prevent her from going back to the Greeks, to her first husband, Menelaus. She is, after all, one heck of a survivor. Talk about getting by on your looks!
Oh, don't get me wrong. Paris is still a chuckle-head. But he may have at least won Helen's heart, at least for a short time.
For those who would like to see a lovely painting of Hector coming in to chastise Paris into putting his armour on, click on the link below. Beware, there is some nudity - nothing hard core, though.
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Hector1.html
Regards,
The Power of the Book
Last edited by PoweroftheBook on Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Thuriniel wrote: | | Women were thought as property ... a woman like Helen, daughter of Zeus, would've had great value ... but she was still just that, a woman. Helen was probably just looking after herself. |
And that's why Athena was a virgin goddess (although actually She was chaste, although with Her never having married it makes no difference). Not because She was against sex - but rather because She was Her Own Woman and She refused to bow down before any man or god. The only god She ever bowed before was Zeus, and then it had more to do with him being a) Her father, b) king of the gods and c) easily manipulatable via apparent submissiveness (that's my take on the Athena-Zeus relationship, She was a good Daughter and governed in all but name, while Zeus was free to pursue other more pleasurable activities and didn't lose face at being bossed around by his Daughter [that's why he had to sometimes reassert that he was in charge ])
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And that's what I like about Greek drama. No one's totally good or bad. |
I think that's a pretty good summary of what Greek drama is! I always had the hardest time choosing between who I liked best: the greeks or the trojans, and I think it's because there was both nobleness and corruption in both sides. A little bit of everything ... just like in real life. |
Yes, the Greek myths are beautiful because they are so real and their gods have human faults - they're attainable, understandable, believable and interesting.
May the stars shine brightly and provide inspirations to all. |
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Varda
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| PoweroftheBook wrote: | | Careful there, Varda, lest you step on the toes of a devoted Xenite! We bite, you know! (Just Kidding!) |
Hey, I enjoy watching Xena too, I would much prefer for the 'Troy' movie to include both Gods and Goddesses, and Amazons, and a cameo by Xena and Gabrielle as well.
| Quote: | | In the Xena world, this is what's known as continuity. Ah, the fun! |
Yes Xena-verse continuity is beautiful! I love what they did to Earth's timeline - it's so completely ridiculous (on the other hand it sometimes makes more sense than what really happened... oh, well, that's life) - that you simply can't fault them for ignoring historical fact when it's obvious they didn't care in the slightest.
May Earendil the Mariner ever sail the skies bearing the Silmaril for all to see it's light. |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:02 am Post subject: |
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PoweroftheBook,
You've had me thinking for two days about the whole Paris/Helen deal. I have come to the conclussion that you and I just happen to have very different views on what took place. You take the more romantic approach: they loved each other ... at least for a time, as you mentioned. I go for the not so romantic approach: they lusted for each other, and Aphrodita meddled quite a bit in the whole thing.
That's what's so fun about literature ... you can prove different views by providing pertinent information and explaining your point as logically and thoroughly as possible.
I might not hold the greatest nor nicest opinion of Paris, but this discussion has certainly changed some of my views on him. It has also helped me rekindle my love of The Iliad and I'm going to see if I give it a good read -- in between my Tolkien reading . Your example of Andromaca's love for Hector made me realize how much I need to remember.
It's been a very fun discussion. Thanks!
Maria
PS: very nice painting of Hector/Paris/Helen!
_________________
~ boe an phân pedi ‘lam dadui ~
~ everyone should speak a second language ~ |
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