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Survey on fanfiction

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Rhapsody



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghettoelleth wrote:
I love California. Tell someone here you write fan fic and the look of relief is comical, always nice to know that you're neighbor isn't amassing an arsenal and still holding a grudge over that little'incident' with the weed whacker and their dog.


In the orig.fic writers group I do participate it isn't seen as geeky, your fan fic fruits is not for the publishing market. My mentor said, writing fan fic is an excellent manner to try out things. Also, I found out that compared with the real tech geeks I know and call my friends, I am not a geek at all. So it's all a matter of how you look at it, really. Ever since the movies came out, Tolkien has become more and more a thing of the public and less conclusive of a small circle, just another thing to consider. So what you might think is geeky, might not be so geeky at all.

ghettoelleth wrote:
What surprises me about alot of my fanfic friends is the fact that their spouses are unaware that they are doing this. It surprises me even more when it is someone who is particularly talented with the pr0n. Whose husband wouldn't want to know this? My husband is a bit confused by the whole jealousy dynamic. His philosophy is. THEY'RE NOT REAL. And who doesn't want to play stunt double for a fake guy who gets laid alot.


Well, umm, since this is a public forum and this message can be read by my spouse I rather not explain.

ghettoelleth wrote:
My husband, my 18 year old son, and my husband's friend Aaron are all in love with Al...I don't even want to know, lol.


That is so cute! Who wouldn't be?

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MetteBL



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Fanwriters,

We are closing the survey now and would like to take the opportunity to thank you for your replies and kind words. We want you to know that all your answers are very important to us and we will treat them all with respect.

We have got the impression that some of you are very interested in the results of the survey, and we think that you are entitled to some kind of response, now that you have taken your time to fill out the survey. We will not publish the answers in their entirety, as we feel that it would break the confidence you have shown us. We will however give a short summary of the conclusions of the paper when we have finished it in December so you can see what have become of your answers.

Once again: Thank you all!

Yours respectfully,
Heidi Buus Winther Jensen &
Mette Bundgaard Laursen
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Rous



Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 358
Location: Trying to stay below the radar

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I missed the survey. But, I agree with those who want to keep writing anonymous. I have few friends and none of them are interested in fanfic, so that pretty much leaves me on my own. As for the husband, his philosophy is if I cannot make money with it, why waste my time. To him, it is useless. Nevermind that I just enjoy it. Or that it fulfills something deep inside me. That is just his way of thinking, and perish the thought that I may disagree with him.
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Alassante
Virtual Village Mod


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rous wrote:
I guess I missed the survey. But, I agree with those who want to keep writing anonymous. I have few friends and none of them are interested in fanfic, so that pretty much leaves me on my own. As for the husband, his philosophy is if I cannot make money with it, why waste my time. To him, it is useless. Nevermind that I just enjoy it. Or that it fulfills something deep inside me. That is just his way of thinking, and perish the thought that I may disagree with him.


AMEN Sister! I feel your pain. I have one of those at home too. Rolling Eyes

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Rhapsody



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alassante wrote:
Rous wrote:
I guess I missed the survey. But, I agree with those who want to keep writing anonymous. I have few friends and none of them are interested in fanfic, so that pretty much leaves me on my own. As for the husband, his philosophy is if I cannot make money with it, why waste my time. To him, it is useless. Nevermind that I just enjoy it. Or that it fulfills something deep inside me. That is just his way of thinking, and perish the thought that I may disagree with him.


AMEN Sister! I feel your pain. I have one of those at home too. Rolling Eyes


Adds a silent me3.

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MetteBL



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear NancyBrooke, SpaceWeavil,ghettoelleth, Rhapsody, Maram68, Neniel, inglor, krazykataave, NeumeIndil, Rous and Alassante,

I’ve just read the discussion you have had in this thread and I must say that it is very interesting. I’m very happy that NancyBrooke brought up the subject of anonymity, because it made me realize that it could be a very important aspect of being a member of an online community, but I must confess that neither I nor my study partner had thought about it (although we obviously should have).

I write this because I hope that you will help us (once again, but this time on a more personal level) to make some things clear and to make us understand the topic of fanfiction and fanwriters better.

But first let me start by elaborating the subject of our paper a bit. The working title of our paper is “Fanfiction and identity in online communities”. Its purpose is to explore what it means for a person to be a fan, to use that fandom in a creative fashion, and publish creative writings in a community, where it is received by people with the same interest.

“Why are they interested in this particular subject?” you might ask. “Do they have a hidden agenda that will make us all look like a bunch of geeks?” Concerns like these are very understandable, since fans in general haven’t always been treated nicely in both factional and fictional literature. But I can assure you that our work is not driven by prejudice or the need to stigmatize anybody. It is driven by curiosity – by a need to find out more about the world we live in.

The first time I heard about fanfiction was when I read an article in a magazine about the subject. They had interviewed a 14-year-old boy, who was a huge fan of Star Wars and wrote stories about it to publish on the internet. From the article I learned that a lot of people did it – wrote fanfiction that is – and there were thousands of these stories on the net. I honestly didn’t know what to think. Part of me was prejudicially thinking: “That’s so typical! These kids just want to have influence on everything. Why can’t they just leave these stories alone, and make up their own universe!” But at the same time I was curios: “What is it in modern society that makes people write these things? And why is it becoming such “a big thing”?” But what interested me the most was that they said in the article that there wasn’t much literature on the subject, because nobody had done any research on it. That is why I just had to investigate it some more, and luckily my study partner found the subject equally fascinating. We just couldn’t seem to grasp that nobody had taken an interest in something that was so important to an increasing number of people. (We later found out that the authors of the article hadn’t done their research properly, because there is in fact a lot of literature on fans and fanfiction.)

Now that I have revealed the prejudice I had against the subject to begin with, I hope that you won’t think ill of me or the paper for that reason. I blame the article because the picture it portrayed of fanfiction and fanwriters isn’t quite fair to the truth – or at least what I have come to think of as the truth. I have read some fanfiction stories, and some of them were actually very good – not at all something you would expect to come across after having read that article. That, combined with the literature I have read on the subject and the survey we did, has made my view on fanfiction change drastically.

Now you know a little more about the paper we are doing and why we are doing it. As I mentioned in the beginning, I hope that some of you will help us understand some things better.
First of all I would like to know if it is ok for me to quote you on some of the things you have said in this thread?

And then here are a lot of questions which I hope you will take a look at:

I get the impression that some aspects of anonymity/secrecy are important to some of you (though it is not important to others). Do I understand you correctly if I say:
You feel that it is necessary to keep your fanwriting identity a secret in real life, because you have experienced/expect that people, who don’t share your interest in fanfiction will not take you seriously? And if this is true, why do you think people will react like that – is it because they don’t really know what fanfiction is, or do you think it is because they know what it is, but they think ill of it (or a completely different reason)?

If I understood correctly what you, NeumeIndil, said then you wouldn’t have a problem with shedding your anonymity to the people you have come to know in the forum (my interpretation: because you know they share your interest in fanwriting/you know you won’t be prejudiced/you will be accepted for who you are?), but you would like to keep your fanwriting activities a secret to people in real life, because you don’t find the same tolerance for your interests there.(?) Does anyone else feel like this (that anonymity to the other forum members doesn’t mean that much to you)?

If someone comes up to you at a social gathering and asks you about your hobbies, do you say that you write fanfiction? Do people respond positively? Would it be different if you said that you wrote fiction?

To those of you who expressed a need to keep your fanwritings a secret: do you feel that it is frustrating to have to keep it a secret, or do you feel that it is nice to keep this side of you to yourself?

Did any of you write fanfiction before you joined a fanfiction forum? If yes, how did you feel about writing, when you didn’t have like-minded people to share it with?

From the survey I can see that most of you are very happy to be part of a community. Could you elaborate a bit on that? Does it give you something which your social network in real life cannot give you?

I’m sorry about the length of this, and I hope you don’t think that I am out of line in asking all of these questions. I don’t expect you to answer all of them. Some of them are more or less giving expression of my assumptions so far, and I hope that you will correct me if I assume wrongly. Once again I find myself relying on your good will and understanding. Smile

Yours respectfully,

Mette B. Laursen

PS. If I can quote you on some of the things you have said in this thread, I should like very much to know a few details about you, if you feel comfortable sharing them: 1) your age, 2) your gender, 3) your occupation, 4) your residence (USA/Europe). Please let me know in a private massage, if you feel comfortable doing so.
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SpaceWeavil



Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Did any of you write fanfiction before you joined a fanfiction forum? If yes, how did you feel about writing, when you didn’t have like-minded people to share it with?


I have only had access to the internet for the last two / two and a half years or so. I've been writing since I was about 10 or 11, so yes, I wrote fan fiction long before I joined a forum. Back then I will admit I didn't really mention it to anyone, but that was mainly because I didn't have anyone close enough in my life to discuss my hobbies / interests with. I was very glad to find an online forum, however, where I met people who actually knew of the series / films I enjoyed and wrote stories about, and I had no problems in giving my real name. I wrote under my real name rather than 'Space Weavil' for a year in my old fandom, and only changed after a rather nasty incident involving a member of that fandom who decided to follow me about the internet causing trouble.

Forgive me if I'm picking this up wrong, but it sounds as though you hold the idea that fan fiction is generally a sub-standard form of writing? I understand this attitude is quite prevalent. I was quite lucky to have been involved in the Dr Who fandom, though, where most of the authors writing for the BBC started off as fanzine or fan fiction writers, so they are not so judgmental of it. I think it does have a stigma though, and fan fiction writers are considered sub-par in some circles, which makes a lot of people reticent to admit to it. This I find is a shame, since many of the writers I've read here on this site in particular can in no way be called 'lesser' (if you wish an example, browse around some of the stories here, in particular those by Viv).

If I'm a bit brazen about mentioning my interests and such to people in real life, that's because I had an epiphany three years ago, wherein I realised I was letting fear of people's reactions to me keep me from enjoying much of life. I was fed up of letting the people who called me a freak or a minger rule the way I tackled life, and so I now say, upfront, yes I am a fan of Lord of the Rings (or whatever) and I write fan fiction as a hobby. Then if they have a problem with it, fine, but at least they will see that it's not something they can use to intimidate me, as I'm quite comfortable in my 'geekiness'

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Rous



Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 358
Location: Trying to stay below the radar

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MetteBL wrote:


I get the impression that some aspects of anonymity/secrecy are important to some of you (though it is not important to others). Do I understand you correctly if I say:
You feel that it is necessary to keep your fanwriting identity a secret in real life, because you have experienced/expect that people, who don’t share your interest in fanfiction will not take you seriously? And if this is true, why do you think people will react like that – is it because they don’t really know what fanfiction is, or do you think it is because they know what it is, but they think ill of it (or a completely different reason)?



If I understood correctly what you, NeumeIndil, said then you wouldn’t have a problem with shedding your anonymity to the people you have come to know in the forum (my interpretation: because you know they share your interest in fanwriting/you know you won’t be prejudiced/you will be accepted for who you are?), but you would like to keep your fanwriting activities a secret to people in real life, because you don’t find the same tolerance for your interests there.(?) Does anyone else feel like this (that anonymity to the other forum members doesn’t mean that much to you)?


My reasons are that not many understand my need to write. My husband thinks that if it is not profitable, it is useless, whether it be writing stories, poetry or my music (which I could make money at if I so chose to go down that road. I do not). So, he knows that I write, has some idea what I write, but I never share it with him. NEVER! My few friends have no interest in it whatsoever, so, I am left with fan sites. (He does not approve of that, either.) However, here I get the validation that I need. Others read my work and let me know that what I do is not useless.

Quote:

If someone comes up to you at a social gathering and asks you about your hobbies, do you say that you write fanfiction? Do people respond positively? Would it be different if you said that you wrote fiction?

To those of you who expressed a need to keep your fanwritings a secret: do you feel that it is frustrating to have to keep it a secret, or do you feel that it is nice to keep this side of you to yourself?


Did any of you write fanfiction before you joined a fanfiction forum? If yes, how did you feel about writing, when you didn’t have like-minded people to share it with?


I can honestly say that I write poetry and short stories, as that is where most of my writing is done. While the fanfic obessession has only been for the last two years, (when I discovered the whole genre) I have been writing for over thirty years. Crappy original stories and mediocre poetry. Only after I started writing fanfic did I gain the confidence to write original stories.

I have a great passion for my fandom and devote a lot of time to it, but it is not the only thing I write. I have over 100 poems posted on the web, and a few song lyrics. I arrange my own versions of music that I really like. So, I do not have to mention the fanfic thing, nor would I. I am even hesitant to attend the museum exhibit in Indy for fear that I will not measure up to what others perceive from my online persona. So, yeah, anonymity is necessary for me. And, it lets me be what I am not in real life.

And no, I did not write fanfic before joining a forum. I wrote stories in my head, but nothing on paper.


Quote:

From the survey I can see that most of you are very happy to be part of a community. Could you elaborate a bit on that? Does it give you something which your social network in real life cannot give you?


I love the community. There are times when it gets sticky, but, like all groups, not everyone agrees all the time. Most people do not consider online friends as real. This could be due to all the bad conotations from meeting dates that way, and the high incidents of men trying to pick-up kids online. I have a couple of very close friends online I have never met. Yet, we talk as personally and intimately as I do with my cousin when she and I talk online. It is like a penpal. No one ever tried to tell me my penpals were not real, yet they will say that about online pals. And, I have met many people I consider at least a good aquaintance from many countries and walks of life. So, rather than hiding in forums (as I have been acused of doing), I see it as broadening my horizons. I learn about other cultures as well as different takes on what we all get from our favourite fandom.

Sorry if this is long, but not many outside of here really understand.

Thank you for taking the time to talk to us, and for taking us seriously

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melissaofaharon



Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 74
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a bit new to this particular online community, and this fandom in general, but I thought there were some questions I could answer.

I have written since I was about 13, most of it fan fiction in one form or another. I did not post anything to a community out of choice, but I did share my stories with different individuals. In this community, I am working on a story to post here.

I feel that fan fiction is often an overlooked part of being a "fan" of something. It allows creativity, and in online communities, friendships to develop that may not otherwise happen. It seems to be a more touchy subject of writing any type of fan fiction when you devulge it in public (in person). Most people are curious to know what you write, and if it is not in their interests, they might cast it off as "silly". Online communities, whether we use our real names or not, write or just read and encourage, are offered still a small part of being anonomous. (Most) people will not meet each other in person, due to time, money, distance, etc etc. I am not saying they will not be friends, telephone, write letters, etc, but there is a "safeway" that the internet gives.
Melissa
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Rhapsody



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I replied by means of a PM.

Rous wrote:
]My reasons are that not many understand my need to write. My husband thinks that if it is not profitable, it is useless, whether it be writing stories, poetry or my music (which I could make money at if I so chose to go down that road. I do not). So, he knows that I write, has some idea what I write, but I never share it with him. NEVER! My few friends have no interest in it whatsoever, so, I am left with fan sites. (He does not approve of that, either.) However, here I get the validation that I need. Others read my work and let me know that what I do is not useless.


It is very hard to remain motivated when the support at home is not there. So I know how this feels Rous, it's like hearing my own husband in these words. But I do have friends, RL ones who write fan fic as well (star trek or Firefly, Buffy) and my close friend started to squee when I told her about my MEFA wins and, yes I caught my husband beaming proudly.

So a Big Hug for you.

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Rous



Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 358
Location: Trying to stay below the radar

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhapsody wrote:
I replied by means of a PM.

Rous wrote:
]My reasons are that not many understand my need to write. My husband thinks that if it is not profitable, it is useless, whether it be writing stories, poetry or my music (which I could make money at if I so chose to go down that road. I do not). So, he knows that I write, has some idea what I write, but I never share it with him. NEVER! My few friends have no interest in it whatsoever, so, I am left with fan sites. (He does not approve of that, either.) However, here I get the validation that I need. Others read my work and let me know that what I do is not useless.


It is very hard to remain motivated when the support at home is not there. So I know how this feels Rous, it's like hearing my own husband in these words. But I do have friends, RL ones who write fan fic as well (star trek or Firefly, Buffy) and my close friend started to squee when I told her about my MEFA wins and, yes I caught my husband beaming proudly.

So a Big Hug for you.


You are lucky. My husband would just say that it is not really an award as you get nothing for it. To him, there must be something to show for it in order for it to be valid. *shakes heads at ridiculous sentiments from one whose hobby is fireworks. Although we do make money at it, what do you have to show for it except videos. And yet, I support his interest*

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Rhapsody



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rous wrote:
Rhapsody wrote:
I replied by means of a PM.

Rous wrote:
]My reasons are that not many understand my need to write. My husband thinks that if it is not profitable, it is useless, whether it be writing stories, poetry or my music (which I could make money at if I so chose to go down that road. I do not). So, he knows that I write, has some idea what I write, but I never share it with him. NEVER! My few friends have no interest in it whatsoever, so, I am left with fan sites. (He does not approve of that, either.) However, here I get the validation that I need. Others read my work and let me know that what I do is not useless.


It is very hard to remain motivated when the support at home is not there. So I know how this feels Rous, it's like hearing my own husband in these words. But I do have friends, RL ones who write fan fic as well (star trek or Firefly, Buffy) and my close friend started to squee when I told her about my MEFA wins and, yes I caught my husband beaming proudly.

So a Big Hug for you.


You are lucky. My husband would just say that it is not really an award as you get nothing for it. To him, there must be something to show for it in order for it to be valid. *shakes heads at ridiculous sentiments from one whose hobby is fireworks. Although we do make money at it, what do you have to show for it except videos. And yet, I support his interest*


Well you know what he initially said: oh great, did you win a car with it? What, just a banner? So don't think that I am so lucky honey. Smile He only reads my orginal fic, he also sees every bit of poetry of me that goes online (not fan fic), but that is as far as he wants to read. I more often hear: why do you want to spend time with/on that or when the baby gets here, will you finally stop writing that? So the pressure on me on quitting writing fan fic is high and I don't think it will ever go away.

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ghettoelleth



Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 1804

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
First of all I would like to know if it is ok for me to quote you on some of the things you have said in this thread?

Shocked If you find anything quotable, go for it.


Quote:
You feel that it is necessary to keep your fanwriting identity a secret in real life, because you have experienced/expect that people, who don’t share your interest in fanfiction will not take you seriously? And if this is true, why do you think people will react like that – is it because they don’t really know what fanfiction is, or do you think it is because they know what it is, but they think ill of it (or a completely different reason)?

Whether or not people take me seriously is of little consequence to me. I can't think of one time when I've ever felt uncomfortable telling someone that I write fanfic. Generally, I get two responses, either people ask what fanfic is, or they ask to see something I've written. The only person I've ever gotten a less than positive response from was a friend of mine who is a big D&D geek, so...like I care. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
If I understood correctly what you, NeumeIndil, said then you wouldn’t have a problem with shedding your anonymity to the people you have come to know in the forum (my interpretation: because you know they share your interest in fanwriting/you know you won’t be prejudiced/you will be accepted for who you are?),

If I maintain anonimity with people online, its cuz they're weird. Most of the people I speak to online pretty much know all my business. The very few I am close to know a bit more. I'm just not a closed person, I have no plans to run for office so I am usually pretty straight forward.

Quote:
but you would like to keep your fanwriting activities a secret to people in real life, because you don’t find the same tolerance for your interests there.(?) Does anyone else feel like this (that anonymity to the other forum members doesn’t mean that much to you)?

The intolerance I usually run across has the square root of 'f' all to do with fanfic writing, unfortunately. I have never, that I know of, been excluded from any social event because I write fanfic.

Quote:
If someone comes up to you at a social gathering and asks you about your hobbies, do you say that you write fanfiction? Do people respond positively? Would it be different if you said that you wrote fiction?
Hmm, I don't ever get asked that specific question at social gatherings. I usually get pumped for information about my husband or his friends.

Quote:
To those of you who expressed a need to keep your fanwritings a secret: do you feel that it is frustrating to have to keep it a secret, or do you feel that it is nice to keep this side of you to yourself?
I don't, but hell yeah, I would. No one should be made to feel bad about something they are good at and enjoy, that's bullshit.

Quote:
From the survey I can see that most of you are very happy to be part of a community. Could you elaborate a bit on that? Does it give you something which your social network in real life cannot give you?

Its nice to have people read your work without having to give a crash course in tolkien. That said, alot of people have given me great feed back on style, mechanics, etc, without having a clue about the Sil.

The issues that some people have with their husbands makes me very sad. That the person who is supposed to stand by you in life would put their wife down, belittle her or make her feel less than valuable is truly tragic. That said, my husband plays dress-up with other people's faces as a career, what's he gonna say? hehe.

Quote:
PS. If I can quote you on some of the things you have said in this thread, I should like very much to know a few details about you, if you feel comfortable sharing them: 1) your age, 2) your gender, 3) your occupation, 4) your residence (USA/Europe). Please let me know in a private massage, if you feel comfortable doing so.
As I said, if there's something quotable, I'll be danged. 1. 34 2. female 3. Domestic Engineer 4. U.S. California to be more specific. That's it? Wow, I don't feel so violated. Very Happy
Jes

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Sulriel



Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 286
Location: Imladris (or maybe Texas ...)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion. It really highlights our individualities.

My husband is supportive of just about anything as long as it doesn't interfer (too much) with dinner.

What I ran into when I started writing fanfic was that most people didn't know what it is, so then you have to explain it, ..so then you have to explain why you want to write someone else's stories instead of your own, then you have to explain why you can't sell it ... - it gets to be a drawn-out process on occasion. It's easier just to say "Elf Smut - for fun."

My family and friends know I write fanfic. My local writers friends, for the most part, don't. In this area, it is highly disproved of, it's regarded as, at best, a type of larva stage for writers. - it's not talked about in polite circles. Smile

I keep my IDs separate, to a point, but I think most people that know me, know my RL name, I don't go to any great pains to keep it secret - more that it makes it easier to easier to sort the mail. I used my RL name for a long time until I got in a series of tangles with MSN and ended up with a couple of more creative IDs. - hence the character name ...

...did I actually managed not to answer any of the questions ... Wink

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RobinKa



Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 534
Location: Wherever I may roam

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghettoelleth wrote:
The issues that some people have with their husbands makes me very sad. That the person who is supposed to stand by you in life would put their wife down, belittle her or make her feel less than valuable is truly tragic.

I'm beginning to understand I don't need my husband's support if he doesn't want to give me any. I just wish he stopped making me feel guilty for what I'm doing because I find nothing wrong in writing fan fiction. He doesn't seem to understand it, and he expresses his attitude in a rather rude way. Needless to say such actions only make me want to quit writing, but on the other hand I don't want to fail my friends and their faith in me.

Just my 2 euro cents.
Binka

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