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NierielRaina
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:48 am Post subject: Silm question concerning elves lingering... |
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I am trying to do research on elves and the life stage known as 'lingering'. I really have a hard time grasping Tolkien as he wrote it...my brain feels like it will explode!! 
What I need to know is when would an elf need to have been born to have reached the lingering stage by the early to mid second age or sooner? And elves who were lingering in Arda...could they take any form they desired if they revealed themselves to others? ie...themselves as they were as a child so their form would be more readily received by who they wished to speak with?
Actually, any information on this stage of an elf would be greatly appreciated or even if you can point me to the right part of Tolkien I'd appreciate it! All I have found right now is in Morgoth's Ring and it doesn't say much except that elves did linger in ME and sometimes chose to speak to others to offer help, thus being able to reveal themselves...
Any help is MUCH appreciated! Thanks!
NiRi |
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Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| NierielRaina wrote: | | What I need to know is when would an elf need to have been born to have reached the lingering stage by the early to mid second age or sooner? |
Elves are doomed to fade and it starts as of the beginning of the Second age, it doesn't matter if you are just born or not, it's a given since it's the will of Eru and in the music.
I hope this helps it understanding more:
From The peoples of Middle-Earth (HOME 12)
"For there were other Elves of various kind in the world; and many were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastnesses of the woods and hills, as Men usurped the lands. Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of Sindarin race. Such were Thranduil and Legolas his son. In his realm and in Lorien both the Sindarin and the woodland tongues were heard; but of the latter nothing appears in this book, and of the many Elvish names of persons or of places that are used most are of Grey-elven form."
Letters of Tolkien, nr.131: All through the twilight of the Second Age, the Shadow is growing in the East of Middle Earth, spreading its sway more and more over Men- who multiply as the Elves begin to fade.
Later on he writes:
.. we see a sort of second fall or at least 'error' of the Elves. There was nothing wrong essentially in their lingering against council, still sadly with the mortal lands of their heroic deeds. But they wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the 'peace' and bliss and perfect memory of the West, and yet to remain on the ordinary world where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them. They became sad, and their art (shall we say) antiquarian, and their efforts all really a kind of embalming - even though they also retained the old motive of their kind, the adonment of earth, and the healing of its hurts. We hear of a lingering kingdom, in the extreme North-west or less what was left in the old lands of the Silmarillion, under Gil-Galad; and of other settlements, such as Imladris (Rivendell) near Elrond, and a great one at Eregion at the Western feet of the Misty Mountains, adjacent to the Mines of Moria.
In the other letter (144) Tolkien explains:
But I suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and Fairies of Europe; and if I were pressed to rationalize, I should say that they represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility – the Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men), and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to 'nobility'.
They are represented as having become early divided in to two, or three, varieties. 1. The Eldar who heard the summons of the Valar or Powers to pass from Middle-earth over the Sea to the West; and 2. the Lesser Elves who did not answer it. Most of the Eldar after a great march reached the Western Shores and passed over Sea; these were the High Elves, who became immensely enhanced in powers and knowledge. But part of them in the event remained in the coast-lands of the North-west: these were the Sindar or Grey-elves. The lesser Elves hardly appear, except as part of the people of The Elf-realm; of Northern Mirkwood, and of Lorien, ruled by Eldar; their languages do not appear.
From the notes of Athrabeth Findrod ah Andreth
The 'waning'of the Elvish hroar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru,and the mode in which the Elves were to make way for the Dominion of Men. The Elves find their supersession by Men a mystery, and a cause of grief; for they say that Men, at least so largely governed as they are by the evil of Melkor, have less and less love for Arda in itself, and are largely busy in destroying it in the attempt to dominate it. They still believe that Eru's healing of all the griefs of Arda will come now by or through Men; but the Elves' part in the healing or redemption will be chiefly in the restoration of the love of Arda, to which their memory of the Past and understanding of what might have been will contribute. Arda they say will be destroyed by wicked Men (or the wickedness in Men); but healed through the goodness in Men. The wickedness, the domineering lovelessness, the Elves will offset. By the holiness of good men - their direct attachment to Eru, before and above all Eru's works (21) - the Elves may be delivered from the last of their griefs: sadness; the sadness that must come even from the unselfish love of anything less than Eru.)
20. Cf. Laws and Customs (typescript text B, p. 219):
As ages passed the dominance of their fear ever increased, 'consuming' their bodies ... The end of this process is their 'fading' ...; for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fea; and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed.
from HOME 10
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NierielRaina
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Rhapsody! I'm still confused about this issue and will probably have to tweak it to work for my story...but I find it fascinating... I really need to get the rest of HoME so I can have this stuff at my finger tips...
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Rhapsody
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I am not certain if you read the Silmarillion, because the role of the music and the fates of the children of Eru is well developed in the Ainulindalë. From there the series of HOME will make much more sense.
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NierielRaina
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
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I've started reading it, but haven't made it far yet...the more I try the more my head hurts trying to take in too much information! *grin* I'll keep plugging away at it...thanks for the advice
NiRi |
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NierielRaina
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| so if the elves began to fade at the beginning of the second age...how long did this process take for the fea to consume the hroa to the point they were considered 'lingering'? Is it possible this could have taken longer for some and shorter for others? Tolkien mentioned that those who lingered could speak to men and reveal themselves at will though remaining unseen at all other times... |
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Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| NierielRaina wrote: | | so if the elves began to fade at the beginning of the second age...how long did this process take for the fea to consume the hroa to the point they were considered 'lingering'? Is it possible this could have taken longer for some and shorter for others? Tolkien mentioned that those who lingered could speak to men and reveal themselves at will though remaining unseen at all other times... |
No, that didn't happen. While the elves were still alive, their hroa and fëa were in perfect balance, it is not a matter of the one taking the other over (otherwise if they chose to reveal themselves to men, how could the men perceive them?). Most of the fading is in their minds, the body is still there but they ignore it. I think you are confusing fading with lingering.
Lingering should be seen that they did not answer to the call of the Valar to return to Valinor now that their task was done on the hither shores (as illustrated in the Music of the Ainur). It was time for the men to take over and rule the lands. The age of men truly started end of the 3rd age (where as many elves already left Middle Earth and became less). The more lands the Men conquered, the more the elves withdrew within their own strongholds, clinging to what once was (an aspect of fading). In the end Lothlorien and Rivendell 'emptied' in the 4th age (many set sail to Aman), only the lands of Mirkwood remained, but as Tolkien said, see above, the elves stuck around, but faded into the background of the hills and the trees so to speak. Can you see now that fading and lingering are two complete different things?
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NierielRaina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: |
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This is what I got at wikipedia and from what I've read in Morgoth's Ring about lingering, it is in keeping with what I said above...
Eventually, their immortal spirits (fëar) will overwhelm and consume their bodies (hröar), rendering them "bodiless", whether they opt to go to Valinor or remain in Middle-earth. At the end of the world, all Elves will have become invisible to mortal eyes, except to those to whom they wish to manifest themselves. Tolkien called this process "Lingering", and it may be thought of as a fourth and final cycle of Elven life.
Theoretically, if the Elves did exist, at the end of the world the youngest of them would still be visible, since for them all to become invisible would logically require that all Elves stop reproducing at some point.
I don't know if what i'm looking to understand Tolkien even wrote...I guess I'll just have to make it up as I go and label it AU. I was doing that anyway when I came across the fact that elves linger and thought it would be really cool to keep what I am writing in keeping with Tolkien. I guess I'll just have to take the concept and develop it as I see fit.
Thanks for your help.
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Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| NierielRaina wrote: | | This is what I got at wikipedia and from what I've read in Morgoth's Ring about lingering, it is in keeping with what I said above... |
Stick with the books and not what online sources say (wikipedia is very nice, but not always right).
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I have not lost my mind - it's backed up on disk somewhere...
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Nazgul #5 in charge anything liquid or edible things
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Alassante
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhapsody wrote: | | NierielRaina wrote: | | This is what I got at wikipedia and from what I've read in Morgoth's Ring about lingering, it is in keeping with what I said above... |
Stick with the books and not what online sources say (wikipedia is very nice, but not always right). |
Yeah - what she said.  lol
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Haleth
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I think the final fate of the Elves remaining in Middle-earth is a matter of interpretation.
I interpret the quote from Laws and Customs to mean the hroar or body did, in fact, become insubstantial.
20. Cf. Laws and Customs (typescript text B, p. 219):
As ages passed the dominance of their fear ever increased, 'consuming' their bodies ... The end of this process is their 'fading' ...; for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fea; and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed.
It seems fairly unequivocal to me, but that's just my way of looking at it.
My interpretation was built with this information in conjuctions with a passage from Many Meetings. Gandalf explains Frodo's perception of Glorfindel at the Ford of Bruinen as:
'...you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the First Born.'
Many Meetings, Fellowship of the Ring
There is also mention of 'those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'
Many Meetings, Fellowship of the Ring.
In fact, the entire passage describes an unseen world parallel to the seen, physical world. I chose to interpret it as a spiritual world, but that's just me.
Letter 131 seems to be addressing the ossification of Elvish culture in Middle-earth during the Second Age in particular. What happens to the Elves after the end of the Third Age is not mentioned.
From the hints given in 'Many Meetings' and the passage on fading in LACE, it seems reasonable to assume the Elves fade entirely from the Seen world as it is perceived by mortals and into the Unseen, which is not.
I could not find a hint as to whether or not the faded, Unseen Elves could physically manifest themselves to mortals or not.
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