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Kalythianna

Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 12 Location: Canada
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:12 pm Post subject: What's the official language of Gondor? |
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Is it Westron? Or something else... or is it one of those things Tolkien never told us.
Anything would be helpful, thanks for your time. _________________ Kalythianna
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"Writing to me is a voyage, an odyssey, a discovery, because I'm never certain of precisely what I will find."
-Gabriel Fielding |
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BittenBuggy

Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 2108 Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'm almost positive that it was Westron..but watch me embarass myself  _________________ -The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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miriel361
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 417
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm sure Tolkien would have said Westron and then gone on to invent a plentitude of new words that were unique to the White City. They probably had a lot of words that were derived from Quenya (just watch me stick my face in the mud with you bitten buggy) |
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Haleth

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 538 Location: The ruins of Tharbad.
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject: Gondor's Language |
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Westron was indeed the main language of Gondor.
According to at least one source I've seen, it was mainly derived from the speech of the folk of Hador, the third house of the Edain in the First Age.
I'm going to have to go and look that up. I think it was at Ardamblion. _________________ Books would not be read, and pipes would not smoke. The day slipped out of his hand, running aimlessly to waste. JRR Tolkien. The Lost Road |
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NancyBrooke Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 160 Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Not sure you could say Gondor had an "official" language like, say, the U.S. does, but from our friend at Ardalambion it seems likely that all Gondorians spoke Westron.
Now, his (I think 'his') essay on Sindarin (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#Heading2) adds that Sindarin was widely used in Numenor, and eventually the Faithful survivors of Numenor used Sindarin and devised place names etc. in Sindarin. He quotes the Unfinished Tales:
"All men of high lineage and all those who were taught to read and write used Sindarin, even as a daily tongue among themselves ... Sindarin is stated to have been 'the normal spoken language of Elendil's people.'"
But wait -- there's more:
"Tolkien notes that at the end of the Third Age there were more Men who spoke Sindarin or knew Quenya than there were Elves who did either (Letters:425). When Frodo and Sam met Faramir's men in Ithilien, they heard them speak first in the Common Tongue (Westron), but then they changed to 'another language of their own. To his amazement, as he listened Frodo became aware that it was the Elven-tongue that they spoke, or one but little different; and he looked at them with wonder, for he knew then that they must be Dúnedain of the South, men of the line of the Lords of Westernesse' (LotR2/IV ch. 4). In Gondor, 'Sindarin was an acquired polite language and used by those of more pure N[úmenórean] descent' (Letters:425). The talkative herb-master of the Houses of Healing referred to Sindarin as the "noble tongue" (LotR3/V ch. 8: 'Your lordship asked for kingsfoil, as the rustics name it, or athelas in the noble tongue, or to those who know somewhat of the Valinorean [= Quenya]...')."
So, it seems likely that while Westron was the everday language, as it were, the more noble families had at least knowledge of Sindarin if they didn't use it in everyday life.
I like Sindarin, I like to pepper my stories with it, I think it adds a note of authenticity. My theory is that at the very least it would have survived in Gondor idiomatically, in phrases, names, curses, expressions. Take it or leave it.
Is this for a story? I'll look forward to reading it and seeing what you decide to do. _________________ NB Duchess of WHY TF Cant'chu Punctuate, First Duchess of F*&(ing &*ll yur comma placement sux!
Nazgul #3 in charge of ducking & sniggering
Garo golf a conu ned i eneth aran an ir ho delitha ad |
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Kalythianna

Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 12 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all for your input, it's greatly appreciated.
NancyBrooke
Yes, it's for a fic I've been working on for a little over a month now. She's the daughter of Ivriniel (Imrahil and Finduilas' older sister). Since Tolkien says nothing whatsoever (as far as i'm aware) about Ivriniel, I've made up a little history for her. My story is all about her daughter, Ellawyn. I'm splitting the story up into parts, just cus I'm aweful at finishing things, and if it's a smaller goal, it'll get done faster.
Anyways, thanks for all the info, I'll see how to best incorperate it into my story. _________________ Kalythianna
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"Writing to me is a voyage, an odyssey, a discovery, because I'm never certain of precisely what I will find."
-Gabriel Fielding |
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GypsieRose

Joined: 09 Jul 2003 Posts: 105 Location: Illinois, USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| NancyBrooke wrote: | | So, it seems likely that while Westron was the everday language, as it were, the more noble families had at least knowledge of Sindarin if they didn't use it in everyday life. |
I think Sindarin is used a bit more extensively than that. Appendix F tells us that there are a few families in Gondor who use Sindarin "daily," mostly around Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth. Mablung and Damrod slide easily between Westron and Sindarin in casual conversation, suggesting that they are among the few who do use it in everyday life.
I'd say that the more noble families (those descended from people who came from Númenor with Elendil) would use Sindarin frequently, even for casual conversation. Most of the rest of the population of Minas Tirith probably has at least a smattering of the language. The fact that Pippin is immediately tagged with a Sindarin nickname when he arrives in MT seems like a good indication.
I've been working on an essay about the use of Sindarin in Gondor at the time of LOTR. Hopefully I'll have a draft ready for posting soon!
--Rose |
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Panneth

Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 0 Location: Manchester/London
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Tolkien even goes to far as to point out that the vowel sound "u" is pronounced differently in Gondor. It's more like a a "y" apparently . This is from the Appendices, by the way. _________________ ~ Emma |
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