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boz4PM
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
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Location: London, UK
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 Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thing is, though, Viv: It is true Legolas is not mentioned in The Hobbit, but then neither are Arwen, Elladan or Elrohir when they are at Rivendell and they were definitely around at the time and quite 'old' already. The Hobbit really only mentions the characters absolutely salient to the story and is entirely one-sided and (so Gandalf tells Pippin, Merry and Frodo in Minas Tirith after the War - see UT) innacurate and biased.
In relation to when the Golden Hall of Edoras was built Legolas says: "five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then". While it could be a figure of speech it seems to imply he is at least that old - that he has himself seen the leaves fall 500 times (speculation of course). He could even be older. Given that he was certainly old enough to fight at the Battle of the Five Armies - and may well have done, even if he wasn't mentioned by Bilbo as doing so. Don't forget we get very little info, really, on who fought there and how. The focus is really on the dwarves Bilbo travelled with. Even Thranduil is barely mentioned by name - mostly he is referred to as 'the Elvenking'.
Elves do not mature till 50. Legolas has to have been considerably older than that or he would not have the skill and experience to be sent on such an important and dangerous mission as that which the Fellowship pledge to undertake. It is unlikely, therefore, that he would be under 80, or even under 100 if not 200 at least.
IMHO he is 500 or more (based on the comment he makes in LOTR).
Given there is no mention of him at the Battle of the Last Alliance (when his grandfather died and his father became king) one presumes he was too young/not born then, but again we can only guess.
'Tis one of Tolkien's unsolved (unsolvable?) mysteries. Like Balrog wings and who exactly IS Tom Bombadil. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Boz wrote: | | Elves do not mature till 50. |
Really? I didn't know that. I've read so many fics where they set the age at 100 or 200, some even 500.
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Viv
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Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| boz4PM wrote: | Thing is, though, Viv: It is true Legolas is not mentioned in The Hobbit, but then neither are Arwen, Elladan or Elrohir when they are at Rivendell and they were definitely around at the time and quite 'old' already. ...
Given there is no mention of him at the Battle of the Last Alliance (when his grandfather died and his father became king) one presumes he was too young/not born then, but again we can only guess.
'Tis one of Tolkien's unsolved (unsolvable?) mysteries. Like Balrog wings and who exactly IS Tom Bombadil. |
Yeah, that's pretty much my point. Every clue we have about Lego's age is pure speculation. And frankly, Tolkien didn't seem overly concerned with providing detailed information on this character. Very possibly, JRR thought Legs was a less important character.
Though, alas, Orlando Bloom's stunning cheekbones have inspired a throng of breathless fangirls who long to know more.
There just doesn't seem much more to know. Which is where us fanfic writers come in.  |
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boz4PM
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
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Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't he say somewhere (Letters possibly) that out of all the Fellowship he did/achieved the least?
Perhaps why we know so little about him. I mean even Gimli gets a family tree in the Appendices... |
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Viv
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| boz4PM wrote: | | I mean even Gimli gets a family tree in the Appendices... |
Gimli actually is a fairly important dwarf, as far as dwarves go. Why don't we write more about him?? Methinks ficwriters are overly concerned with who is Prettiest.
*le sigh* |
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boz4PM
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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'Tis true. There isn't too much about dwarvish society, but then we do get a lot of them in The Hobbit for us to get some idea, I suppose.
'Tis also the reason why I like Lady Cam's OFUM story: Gimli as the love interest, *beams* |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| boz4PM wrote: | | Didn't he say somewhere (Letters possibly) that out of all the Fellowship he did/achieved the least? |
Yep, in Unfinished Tales somewhere, but it was in relation to how little the Elves' efforts factored in concerning Sauron's final defeat. Just after he mentions Legolas, Tolkien says something about Galadriel being pretty powerless do to anything despite being considered the greatest Elf in ME at the time.
I don't know if he was inadvertantly or purposefully mysterious about Legolas, but I always thought it was odd that when Tolkien supervised a picture drawn of the Fellowship (woman artist, can't remember her name) that Legolas was the only one with a hood on, pulled all the way up so you couldn't even see his face.  |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: |
I don't know if he was inadvertantly or purposefully mysterious about Legolas, but I always thought it was odd that when Tolkien supervised a picture drawn of the Fellowship (woman artist, can't remember her name) that Legolas was the only one with a hood on, pulled all the way up so you couldn't even see his face. |
Maybe his beauty was too great to dipict? 
_________________
-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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boz4PM
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I always thought it was odd that when Tolkien supervised a picture drawn of the Fellowship (woman artist, can't remember her name) that Legolas was the only one with a hood on, pulled all the way up so you couldn't even see his face. |
Never knew that. MOST interesting. I think BittenBuggy may be on to something, though: the beauty of the elves would be difficult to capture or imagine. Better left untried, perhaps?
Was it in UT? Don't remember it in there, though I am sure you are right. And yes Galadriel and Elrond would both have been powerless if Sauron's plans had... well... gone to plan. (Sorry about that - it's late!).
In UT Gandalf makes it clear that if he hadn't managed (by fate) to stumble across a way to get rid of Smaug as well as push Sauron from Dol Guldur things would have gone VERY differently: the North in flames and no Queen in Gondor. In other words Rivendell and Lothlorien would have fallen. Doesn't bear thinking about, really. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Boz wrote: | | In UT Gandalf makes it clear that if he hadn't managed (by fate) to stumble across a way to get rid of Smaug as well as push Sauron from Dol Guldur things would have gone VERY differently: the North in flames and no Queen in Gondor. In other words Rivendell and Lothlorien would have fallen. Doesn't bear thinking about, really. |
Really? Now that's facinating. Never picked up on the Smaug thing. But you're right, it's fairly inconsequencial now.
It's so late, I'm not going to even bother with trying to spell 'inconsequencial' right. 
_________________
-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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boz4PM
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
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Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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[off-topic] Yes I love that bit. It's Gandalf explaining to Merry, Pippin and Frodo WHY he chose Bilbo and how the whole quest to Erebor started in the first place. I referred to it in the author's Notes to chapter 18 of Don't Panic cos Bilbo's version of events is different from that which Gandalf tells them. The dwarves were less than impressed with Bilbo and Thorin nearly refused to take him with them. It took all Gandalf's powers of persuasion and most of the night to change his mind.
Btw I LURVE Unfinished Tales. Can you tell? [/off-topic] |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Boz wrote: | | Elves do not mature till 50. |
Really? I didn't know that. I've read so many fics where they set the age at 100 or 200, some even 500. |
The reference to this is in the Laws and Customs of the Eldar in Morgoth's Ring. It says: "Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full grown. "
Hannah, if you don't have Morgoth's Ring, I've got a scanned copy of Laws and Customs I can send you. Not everybody holds to the ideas there, but it's very interesting reading.
Anna |
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Yep, the Legolas reference is in UT, somewhere in the Istari chapter. Toward the end, I think. Don't have my books with me so I can't give a page number. I've read it enough years to know the general location of things, but still not enough to know page numbers. 
Continuing off-topic, Unfinished Tales is one of my favorites, too, and it has one of my favorite mentions of Gandalf. Somewhere in the Hunt for the Ring chapter it talks about Gandalf going to one of the White Councils after he'd started to figure out what Saruman was up to. So Saruman's bad mouthing Gandalf in the Council to everyone else and Gandalf isn't saying anything, just sitting there listening and puffing away on his pipe. Finally Saruman starts bitching at Gandalf about how he should be paying attention instead of playing with his toys of fire and smoke.
Gandalf tells him something like 'You wouldn't wonder if you'd ever used this herb yourself. You might find that smoke blown out clears your mind of the shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience to listen to error without anger."
So Saruman gets really ticked and starts mouthing again, but Gandalf didn't say anything. Just took a big draw on his pipe and blew out one big ring of smoke with several smaller rings after it. Saruman shut up and Gandalf got up and left.
Had to share that. I love that story. Book Gandalf kicks extreme ass. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | BittenBuggy wrote: | | Boz wrote: | | Elves do not mature till 50. |
Really? I didn't know that. I've read so many fics where they set the age at 100 or 200, some even 500. |
The reference to this is in the Laws and Customs of the Eldar in Morgoth's Ring. It says: "Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full grown. "
Hannah, if you don't have Morgoth's Ring, I've got a scanned copy of Laws and Customs I can send you. Not everybody holds to the ideas there, but it's very interesting reading.
Anna |
 Oh, yes please!
_________________
-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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boz4PM
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
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Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah yes. Book Gandalf is aceness incarnate. I do like all the information you get about both him and Saruman in UT. All the bit about Saruman secretly admiring Gandalf and realising he did in fact know what he was talking about (though Saruman always spoke against him in Council) - even to Saruman deciding to try the pipeweed precisely because Gandalf liked it. And then Gandalf catching him at it! Priceless. Saruman behaving like some spoilt brat... only MUCH more dangerous, of course. |
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