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LadyRoisin
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 39
Location: California, USA
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 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Alassante, is your writer's workshop online. I'm curious where these sites are, as for I'm leary just jumping into one where I don't know the people at all, and just handing them my stories. Are there any related speicifically to the LOTR fandom?
I think the scariest thing for me about a writing workshop is walking into a place where I don't recognize ANY of the names, and none of them know me from adam, and I hand them my stories. If it's a social situation, that's different, but a writer's workshop, having someonething, or someone familiar would certainly help curb the anxiety.
I know I certainly don't have the ability to get to an in person writer's workshop. Plus none of the ones i could find locally are places I can get to (I don't drive) and don't deal with fanfiction. So yeah, probably not the best choice.
Yeah, PM is great for crit, because it's true, the review lasts long after the crit is taken or disregarded. I used to ask that if people wanted to cit, that they PM it to me, but that chased off a lot of reviews, and so now I don't ask for it so much. If someone wants to PM me crit, awesome, but if they leave it as a review, well, I'll deal. I do think it's better for both author and the crit reviewer to do it over PM, but some like to do it over review, and they've been really helpful to me, and I don't want them to think I don't appreciate their help, because I surely do. |
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NancyBrooke
Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 160
Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Alassante wrote: | | I remember when I first came here you and I had a debate about the word cock, and I don't mean a male chicken, in fan fiction. |
And it was a good discussion, which I ultimately ignored  .
Actually, I think it's exemplary to this conversation: You left me a complimentary review, but raised a personal and literary concern, that that word had disrupted your reading and thrown you out of the fiction. It was good criticism, rooted in experience and the actual word(s) used. I considered what you said carefully, in part because you had explained precisely how my word choice brought the story down a notch (IYHO). Now, ultimately, I decided to keep the fic as is, but it was successful criticism, well delivered and I appreciate(d) it.
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NB Duchess of WHY TF Cant'chu Punctuate, First Duchess of F*&(ing &*ll yur comma placement sux!
Nazgul #3 in charge of ducking & sniggering
Garo golf a conu ned i eneth aran an ir ho delitha ad |
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NancyBrooke
Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 160
Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| LadyRoisin wrote: | | Yeah, PM is great for crit, because it's true, the review lasts long after the crit is taken or disregarded. |
I certainly don't mind concrit in a review, it's just the little things like "you missed a comma after 'sucks'" or "your third paragraph appears twice" that I'd rather have in a pm, 'cause those things I'm gonna fix (but not the 'cock' thing, I'm never changing that. And, for those who want to know, it's in this story).
 
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NB Duchess of WHY TF Cant'chu Punctuate, First Duchess of F*&(ing &*ll yur comma placement sux!
Nazgul #3 in charge of ducking & sniggering
Garo golf a conu ned i eneth aran an ir ho delitha ad |
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LadyRoisin
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 39
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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LOL! See, now I'm going to have to go and read this story because now you have me curious.  |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Alassante wrote: | We've been talking about the star ratings on another thread and in a group I'm in we've talked about reviews so I wanted to ask here. If you read something and you don't love it - how honest or helpful are you with the review?
This site doesn't allow flames so obviously no one says 'you suck!' but there is a 'OMG this is Gr8!' review and there is a 'I really enjoyed your characterization of Boromir, however, I thought chapter 2 showed Denethor in a very unbelievable light.' etc. review. Some people on here feel that if you don't like it - don't review. Knowing that fact, if I see a lot of hits on something but no reviews, I often worry that it is not good. Other people have no problem telling a person what they see wrong with the fiction in a polite way. (This is often called critting the fic) But is that really what the review function is for now adays? Others have mentioned leaving helpful crit for someone in a review and the writer tore into them in a PM or email (not neccessarily on this site but on all archives)
Give your opinion/thoughts but think about not just this archive but other sites (only those that do not allow flames)
1. As a writer, how honest do you want your readers to be with you? Do you feel once your story is actually posted, you only want good reviews and no crit or do you want any type of help you can receive? Does a review that points out minor mistakes such as typos make you mad? What if you felt the review was rather harsh - would you feel angry or hurt? |
Was a time when I left ANs at the tops of my stories practically begging readers for concrit. And you know what? No one ever did it. No one ever left critical reviews. And the more I thought about it, the more it made sense: it's my job as a writer to post only the most polished, final product I can manage. Do I want reviewers to be honest if I'm underwhelming them with my prose? Hell yeah. Do I expect them to serve as my personal copyeditors/fact-checkers? Nope. Ain't their job.
| Quote: | | 2. As a reader, how comfortable do you feel giving reviews of stories you have issues with? Do you tell the writer? Do you give a good review if you like it and no review if you don't? Do you think its your 'place' to give a writer a suggestion or two? Is a PM the more appropriate way to handle crit and reviews should be more supportive and flattering? |
It's a waste of time for me to offer unsolicited beta: most times, writers will either ignore it or want to argue with me about it. I'm always available for a real beta, but not in a review or other public space. That's like selling myself on the cheap. |
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NierielRaina
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:31 am Post subject: |
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Currently, as a reader, if I make it all the way through a fic, or at least the first chapter, I will review, whether I liked it or not. I feel if I suffered through something, I ought to give my opinion! (or if I enjoyed it. ) But I don't necessarily give crit any more. I will say if I liked it (or didn't) and why on either point in a polite manner. If I didn't like something, I may say something like "the overall style and voice of the story was hard for me to follow and so I don't think I will keep reading. But good luck with your tale!" and I always try to point out something positive.
As an author: I'll take whatever I can get, though it does all depend on RL at the moment. Lately, reviews that give a lot of crit have really gotten to me. To the point I've thought of putting an author's note saying "Please leave comments, but not concrit. This is a finished work." But that is simply because I have more stress on me right now than normal and my emotional armor has rusted through in a few places. Usually, even negative reviews roll off me after a day or so. I can usually put them in perspective.
1) This reader loves my story! Yay for me!
2) This reader likes my story, but this or that may bother them.
3) This reader is neutral and a bit overboard with the crit
4) This reader is an asshat who needs a life.
5) Flamer needs to f*ing be BANNED!
You get the idea. It helps to put the reader in perspective and see remember it's not personal. But some stories are more personal than others so comments on one story might hurt more than on another. I'm babbling...
In general, I prefer reviews that tell me 1) if the reader liked or disliked the story; 2) WHY the reader liked or disliked the story; and 3) if there are any major flaws that were missed in the betaing/editing process that really need to be corrected? Optional 4) General chit chat (I have a couple reviewers like this and it's fun to continue conversations in reviews and replies! 
I'm not sure if I answered the question or not.
ZZzzzzz..... |
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Robbie
Site Admin
Joined: 22 Jun 2003
Posts: 1100
Location: Sydney, Australia.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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With regards to the really bad stories (and I'm not talking about canon errors, timeline errors, a missing apostrophe etc) *WE* like it when you give a review, even when it's not glowing.
One of the more frequent issues are authors whose stories do need some work; sometimes it's simple betaing, sometimes a little bit more thought. We'd much rather a reader / member post a review politely nudging that a beta is required etc. Otherwise they'll get an e-mail from the admins asking the same - and that smacks a lot stronger than from another reader.
To be honest, the response to admin e-mails is, in the main, not positive. It's a shame as we don't want to put people off writing and posting and want to help where possible. We get little screaming hissy-fits back sometimes, to which we just shrug our shoulders and accept their understanding that they never want anything more to do with this stupid site with obnoxious, snotty-nosed administrators (etc).
If you leave a nasty review, we'll delete it. But if you can leave a negative but helpful review where necessary, we thank you for it! It's a fine line - but go for it!
***************
To answer the question as a writer - I don't write fanfic but do write enough for work - if someone points out even the smallest typo, I'm happy. Makes me look better when I correct it. If there are a lot, do it quietly (by e-mail / PM).
If someone makes a suggestion sometimes it gets taken on board or other times I say "thanks, but I'm going to politely decline because..." - in the latter case, don't keep digging. It was appreciated, it made me think, but it didn't fit.
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Rob
www.crackingegg.com |
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Haleth
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 538
Location: The ruins of Tharbad.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: To review or not to review? |
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| Alassante wrote: |
1. As a writer, how honest do you want your readers to be with you? Do you feel once your story is actually posted, you only want good reviews and no crit or do you want any type of help you can receive? Does a review that points out minor mistakes such as typos make you mad? What if you felt the review was rather harsh - would you feel angry or hurt? |
I'm very grateful for any help reviewers may offer, from canonical errors and spelling mistakes to over-arching difficulties with plot continuity and characterization.
A harshly worded review would hurt at first. Eventually I'd get over it, look carefully at the suggestion and try to improve.
| Alassante wrote: |
2. As a reader, how comfortable do you feel giving reviews of stories you have issues with? Do you tell the writer? Do you give a good review if you like it and no review if you don't? Do you think its your 'place' to give a writer a suggestion or two? Is a PM the more appropriate way to handle crit and reviews should be more supportive and flattering? |
It depends on the issues. I try to keep the public review positive. I also try (though I don't always succeed) to identify something that really stood out as well done.
If there's a spelling mistake, grammar error or minor canonical error I'll pm the author and tell them about it.
If I really don't like a story, I'll hit the back button on my browser rather than read the entire thing.
As Alassante can tell you, I'm nowhere near so circumspect when I'm beta reading, but those are different circumstances.
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Books would not be read, and pipes would not smoke. The day slipped out of his hand, running aimlessly to waste. JRR Tolkien. The Lost Road |
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Alassante
Virtual Village Mod
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: To review or not to review? |
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| Haleth wrote: | \
As Alassante can tell you, I'm nowhere near so circumspect when I'm beta reading, but those are different circumstances. |
Threatening to beat Aragorn for being a stupid idiot was a bit harsh...I think he took it personally especially when I laughed.
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Nagzul #2 - The Nazgul of Shmoove
Crucio! Because stupidity should be painful!
http://alikat7.livejournal.com/ |
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ElenaTiriel
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 22
Location: The Grey Havens
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
Great questions about reviewing, Alassante!
I have a very hard time writing reviews (so always end up doing my MEFA reviews at the last moment, no matter how much I swear I won't procrastinate... again), so have been leaving only the "Oh, I like this!" kind, usually without much detail. I do prefer to mention at least some details, but think it's better to say something good even if I don't have the time, energy, or brain-power to be specific.
(I remember one very short MEFA review that I wrote minutes before the deadline, where I just added in passing that the last line of the drabble was perfect... but the author told me in her reply that she had really struggled with that line, and it gave me a huge warm glow knowing how much I had pleased her....)
If I don't like a story, I just close the tab... the only time I would leave feedback for a *truly* awful story is if I'm reviewing for the HASA archive, and the story is so hopeless I want to... erm, discourage the author from re-submitting it. And that's happened only once in over a hundred reviews over several years; usually I can find at least one positive thing to say....
I only point out rare typos and such to authors who appear to care about the quality of their work, and it's almost always in private. Or in a separate review so the author can delete it once she's read it.
Now, as an author, I have never received any feedback, whether superficial or detailed concrit, that I didn't appreciate (perhaps because I avoid archives like ff.net?). I may not agree with concrit, or choose to make a change to the story, but I always read it and consider it carefully. Perhaps because I have such a hard time writing reviews, I value any time and effort a reader makes to let me know their opinion. And I have also received one or two that didn't really speak to the story, though they always made sense overall.... pretty much LOL!
(Though, getting a review that criticized a spelling mistake that wasn't wrong did sting a bit.... since the reviewer declined the drabble for the HASA archive because of it.... LOL!)
Oh, and I agree with Sulriel... I put my WIPs up in HASA beta, and often get good constructive feedback there. But By the time I post in OSA, SoA, or TFF, I expect them to be finished. So, I do not expect feedback from those sites to necessarily contain concrit (but it is still welcome, nonetheless).
I think because I was in my 50's before I discovered fanfiction and wrote my first story, I always had the sense that I could respect whatever feedback I got, valuing both positive and negative (though enjoying the positive more! LOL). And I was almost relieved when said first story was declined for the HASA archive, learning then that I could face that disappointment with some level of equanimity. (Now, with more experience under my belt, I'm a bit embarrassed by that story.... LOL!)
I only write drabbles now, and I've developed a beta relationship with a person who writes them well, really understands the form, and doesn't hesitate to tell me what she thinks works and doesn't work, plus make really good suggestions (which I feel comfortable in declining, if I don't feel that they are in my "voice"). I am so blessed to have such a friend and beta!
Despite that, I have occasionally published a drabble with a typo in it, like typing "Angband" for "Angmar"... and I am so grateful when someone takes the effort to let me know, whether publicly or privately, so I can correct it as soon as possible.
Sorry for the rambling reply... between phone calls, laundry bells buzzing, and watching the Nutcracker on TV, my thoughts have been disjointed. Well, more than usual, anyway.... LOL!
- Barbara |
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Sulriel
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 286
Location: Imladris (or maybe Texas ...)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Robbie wrote: | With regards to the really bad stories (and I'm not talking about canon errors, timeline errors, a missing apostrophe etc) *WE* like it when you give a review, even when it's not glowing.
One of the more frequent issues are authors whose stories do need some work; sometimes it's simple betaing, sometimes a little bit more thought. We'd much rather a reader / member post a review politely nudging that a beta is required etc. Otherwise they'll get an e-mail from the admins asking the same - and that smacks a lot stronger than from another reader.
To be honest, the response to admin e-mails is, in the main, not positive. It's a shame as we don't want to put people off writing and posting and want to help where possible. We get little screaming hissy-fits back sometimes, to which we just shrug our shoulders and accept their understanding that they never want anything more to do with this stupid site with obnoxious, snotty-nosed administrators (etc).
If you leave a nasty review, we'll delete it. But if you can leave a negative but helpful review where necessary, we thank you for it! It's a fine line - but go for it!
***************
To answer the question as a writer - I don't write fanfic but do write enough for work - if someone points out even the smallest typo, I'm happy. Makes me look better when I correct it. If there are a lot, do it quietly (by e-mail / PM).
If someone makes a suggestion sometimes it gets taken on board or other times I say "thanks, but I'm going to politely decline because..." - in the latter case, don't keep digging. It was appreciated, it made me think, but it didn't fit. |
I have to admit I've never considered this issue at all. I guess I don't mind trying leaving a mild comment on stories I start and don't finish for a reason other than it simply not being to my taste.
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"May it be a light to you in dark places." |
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Haleth
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 538
Location: The ruins of Tharbad.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: To review or not to review? |
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| Alassante wrote: | | Haleth wrote: | \
As Alassante can tell you, I'm nowhere near so circumspect when I'm beta reading, but those are different circumstances. |
Threatening to beat Aragorn for being a stupid idiot was a bit harsh...I think he took it personally especially when I laughed. |
Was it Aragorn or Eomer who was threatened with the stupid bat?
Maybe it was both. I needed chocolate.
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Books would not be read, and pipes would not smoke. The day slipped out of his hand, running aimlessly to waste. JRR Tolkien. The Lost Road |
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Alassante
Virtual Village Mod
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: To review or not to review? |
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| Haleth wrote: |
Was it Aragorn or Eomer who was threatened with the stupid bat?
Maybe it was both. I needed chocolate. |
It was Aragorn. And you were right. It was just the intensity of your argument that cracked me up.
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Nagzul #2 - The Nazgul of Shmoove
Crucio! Because stupidity should be painful!
http://alikat7.livejournal.com/ |
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elea24
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 80
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 1. As a writer, how honest do you want your readers to be with you? Do you feel once your story is actually posted, you only want good reviews and no crit or do you want any type of help you can receive? Does a review that points out minor mistakes such as typos make you mad? What if you felt the review was rather harsh - would you feel angry or hurt? |
I'd be very happy to get crit in my reviews. I'm still very much a newbie and my writing still has a long way to go. I'm still trying to get a feel for, and push through, my limitations. Some of my failings I can see for myself, but there are some things I won't pick up on, so I'm happy for others to gently point them out to me. I always find it helpful when people point out what they specifically liked reading in one of my fics (even if it was the only part they liked )
| Quote: | | 2. As a reader, how comfortable do you feel giving reviews of stories you have issues with? Do you tell the writer? Do you give a good review if you like it and no review if you don't? Do you think its your 'place' to give a writer a suggestion or two? Is a PM the more appropriate way to handle crit and reviews should be more supportive and flattering? |
To be honest, I have a 'if you can't review with anything nice, don't review at all' mentality. If I read something that, overall, I liked a lot, but there was one element that distracted me, or had a negative impact on the reading experience for me, then I would leave a good review and politely point out the element that I feel doesn't quite work for whatever reason. Even when I leave a good review (which is mostly because, as I said, I don't generally leave negative reviews) I always try to point out what elements I specifically liked the best. I find that this is helpful to me, so hopefully other authors can get the same from my reviews. |
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NeumeIndil
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| elea24 wrote: |
To be honest, I have a 'if you can't review with anything nice, don't review at all' mentality. If I read something that, overall, I liked a lot, but there was one element that distracted me, or had a negative impact on the reading experience for me, then I would leave a good review and politely point out the element that I feel doesn't quite work for whatever reason. Even when I leave a good review (which is mostly because, as I said, I don't generally leave negative reviews) I always try to point out what elements I specifically liked the best. I find that this is helpful to me, so hopefully other authors can get the same from my reviews. |
This is generally what I do. I call it "The Southern Rule"; people from the American south have a habit of saying bad things flanked by compliments, as in "Bless her heart, she tries so hard, but she can't seem to get the hang of attaching a file. It's always wonderful to read, though." If I can't find a single nice thing to say about it, I won't review, though in this year's MEFAs, I left a 1-line review saying, in short, that the author had so many typos and grammar errors it ruined what looked to be an interesting story. Hopefully she will see that you can't trust Spellcheck or just blindly accept revisions while realizing that I liked her idea and the story she had to tell (I just couldn't tolerate the lack of concern for her *way* she told it.)
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