[NeumeIndil]

I've been beta reader for a writer at another site for going on 2 years now. I started because she asked specifically for grammar/punctuation help and I liked the idea she started with.

I still like the idea, and thought that after 2 years of corrections, examples, talking through the (I think) fairly simple rules of punctuation and capitalization, she'd learn to recognize the patterns to her errors, catch some of them herself, and it would get easier. It hasn't. From my perspective, it seems like she doesn't retain *anything* I say or simply doesn't care to try to catch her own errors before she ships it off to me. To give you an idea, here's an excerpt. (The OFC is a mary sue brought to the Third Age by Saruman for some unknown purpose who now has become friends with the Lorien elves.):

As haldir and the others entered the field, Anna could see that some a great battle had been fought here. As far as the mortal eye could see were tents of every different color , men with long blonde hair and bright armour could be seen everywhere, while here and there Anna caught sight of an occasional elf, but what drew her attention most was the small group of people who had first sent her with the elves. Many thoughts ran through Anna's head for seeing the people who had rescued her from Old Beardy made her heart jump with joy . She could speak their language now enough to make herself understood and since this seemed to be a victory celebration perhaps now at last they would be able to find a way to help her get home.

Now, if English were her second or third language, I could understand punctuation and grammar still being weak after 2 years of writing, but this woman was born and raised in the US and lives here still. She's spoken and written English her entire life, on top of learning other languages besides. And yet... every time I get a chapter to go over, every paragraph looks like that. I get black text on a white page and send it back looking like I spilled a bag of Skittles candies.

What makes this difficult for me to discuss with her is that 1) we've become friends while working on this story and 2) she's old enough to be my mother. I'm not in a teacher-student situation where even a mild scolding would be appropriate, and issuing an ultimatum would make me feel uncomfortable at best.

How should a beta react to a situation like this, when he/she feels an unfair amount of the work of a story is being dumped on his/her shoulders?

Where does the author's responsibility end and the beta's begin? What else can I do to make clear that just because she's closer to 50 than 30 doesn't mean she gets to turn her brain off and leave the work to the young'uns?

How do I tell this woman, who I care about and enjoy being friends with, that I'm sick and bloody tired of her not listening/abusing the privilege of my help?

Any thoughts appreciated. Off to wade through 2 more pages.

[dolarabee]

Oh, Neume, if it wasn't for the friendship you struck with this author I'd say run... RUN, LOLA, RUN!

I totally understand your frustration and after two years you'd think she would retain *something*! (is it here I should insert that I'm amazed you lasted that long?!) If the paragraph above is really a good sample of her level of writing, I sympathise with you. That type of writing is the hardest to beta, I find. It's tedious, long, it's not just punctuation or a couple of verb/tense to fix; it's the whole thing you got to rewrite! (I love you Skittles anology.)

Joke aside, for the sake of friendship, it's a little hard to pull out now, mid-story, but can I suggest you simply say 'no' next time she wants you to beta something? I mean, you don't have to get into the whys, if that makes you uncomfortable or could ruin the relationship, but you know, tell her you're no longer taking any beta work...

do.

[lissaselves]

It may be rather presumptuous of me to give an opinion on this problem, newbie that I am, but still ... here's my two cents' worth:

[DarkElfChilde]

If I were you, I'd just be honest to her if she hasn't learned anything by now. Does she even want to learn or what? Ask her why. All you're doing is trying to help her, and honesty helps...now matter how blunt it is. If she wants to keep on writing, she'll have more editors like you who will have to say the same thing to her.

[eiranae]

Well, Neu, I always knew you had patience, but WOW!

Like Lissa, I'm new at this myself, but I don't see that you should waste your time on someone who seems to be unwilling to improve. I've read threads before about why people write fanfic and whether or not improvements should be expected. I think if a person is going to go to the trouble of sharing with the world, they should be willing to put the effort into it that will make it a good work. If they aren't willing to do the work, they shouldn't expect anything other than criticism.

You have your own writing to do. You shouldn't have to write her story for her. Maybe you could ask her to find someone else for the next half? Probably doesn't help much, but if you are struggling yourself, then you shouldn't have this hanging over you.

[Alassante]

I've read plenty of ESL writers first drafts that are better than that. I can understand feeling like you can't say anything to her because of the friendship but you're doing both of you a disservice IMO. You're letting her get away with laziness that she will continue. Sometimes as a beta, you do have to be blunt even if you're diplomatically blunt. Personally as a writer I'd rather have someone point out when I'm slacking off and not doing my share. If she ends the friendship based on your honesty or decision not to beta anymore- then really, she wasn't that good of a friend to start with. If you let it continue then it will - why should she bother changing, she knows you'll fix it for her in the end. Alot of people will ask for a beta and then make the changes without even reading them. I betaed for someone a long time ago that would just approve all my Word changes. I realized it when I emailed her the revision and she posted it within 5 mins of me sending it to her. The page had so much red on it - it look like it was bleeding and she managed to edit it in 5 mins? umm no - she just accepted my changes and posted it. It seems like this woman is doing the same thing.

[Viv]

Instead of rewriting for her, you could return a chapter with a list of things for her to do (e.g., "1. You have a lot of run-on sentences. Remember that you need punctuation -- usually a comma -- between two independent clauses. You'll want to go through and clean those up. Let me know if you need links to some online references. 2. I've deleted a few extraneous words, but you should probably run a spell-check and a grammar-check if your word processor has one. 3. My suggestions for plot/characterization improvements are the following..."). That way she'll realize that she can depend on you for good advice but not lean on you to do the writing for her. Plus, you won't be abandoning her.

Good luck with this. It's a tough situation.

[Sulriel]

Neume, I would say that you're a saint.

and/but I want to offer something that might soften all this *a little*.

I am terrible at grammar. Grammar and spelling. really really terrible. I literally DON'T SEE the errors.

It's always embarrassed and confused me because I'm otherwise (a little at least) a kinda bright person.

It's not that I'm lazy or stupid or that I'm trying to take advantage of anyone, and it's not that I don't try -- but ... I don't know how to explain it except to say that it's maybe something like dyslexia but not...? Maybe my brain is fixing the errors between my eyes and my thought process? I don't know.

I do think I've improved to some extent, but it's because I work at it very hard. If I had to really line edit something on my own, I would literally have to go sentence by sentence and check each against the rules. In order to catch spelling and syntax errors, I have to read the story line by line backwards so there is no context. You might offer that trick to her to help her line edit herself. It works pretty well.

Now I don't know if your CP has anything remotely like that going on. And I certainly like the idea of you only doing line-edits on a few hundred words and sending her a link to a page with clear, concise grammar rules. Regardless of if she has some kind of disconnect or if she's lazy, if she's writing, she should be able to at least edit her drafts. I would say that if I can do it, anyone should be able to.

[RobinKa]

Two eurocents from my professional experience: it's a habit, respected by all in my crew at work, that if I see that the text is too rough, I can send it back to the author. I of course point clearly what they need to do with it and why I think they should redo it, but I don't have to re-write the material in their stead. It's not my job. The only exception is when there's a great hurry and deadline to meet, which is rare in f-fiction I suppose.

Perhaps, like the others suggested, she needs to carefully re-read the chapter before sending it to you. Maybe she just closes the document and pushes the button that sends the email, and she doesn't even think that's not enough?

Good luck anyway. If you need my help, you know where you can find me

PS. You ARE an extremely patient and wonderful beta!

[NeumeIndil]

Thanks, everybody, for the encouragement. I don't think of it as 'saintly' so much as just trying as hard as possible, but I think I've really reached the end of my rope on this one. In her defense, she did spend a year of high school out of the country, so she was more worried about being bitten/stung by something venomous on the way to the outhouse than the proper sequence of punctuation in a literary quotation.

But, that said, after 2 years, the excuses aren't working any more. I realize I need to say *something*; my writing, I can tell, has suffered from having this hanging over my head. Beta has become a chore, not the fun pastime it was when I started doing fan fic (I was a beta before I wrote, for those who weren't here for my inauspicious beginnings ). I'm just unsure of what to say, and more importantly how to say it. While the words usually make one kind of sense in my head, they sometimes come out with meanings I didn't intend. I'll have to be very careful of how I approach this to avoid insulting her, her education, her story, etc. I think I've got a jumping off point now, though, which will help a lot.

So, thanks. I'm glad to know I'm not just being judgmental and elitist for getting tired of highlighting the the same damn thing in 18 4 page chapters.

And Lissa? Had you not just said you're an ESL writer, I wouldn't have known. Brava! I'll beta for you any time.

DEC: I have it! I got the chapter I'm whining about the day before. If you still want the opinions, I can send them soon.

[NeumeIndil]

[DarkElfChilde]

[Viv]

Argh, Neume. How frustrating! Sounds like she just wants somebody to co-write with her. If you're putting that much time into something, it might as well have your name on it.

[eiranae]

[lissaselves]