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NeumeIndil
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
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 Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking of particular lines *I* was writing or checking in my own work, actually. 
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Alassante
Virtual Village Mod
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | The thing, grammatically, that still chafes a bit is dangling participles. I think it's easy to overlook them just because the author knows who the subject of the sentence is, so it takes a couple readings to suss out the error. |
I remember one time you beta'd a story of mine when I first started and pointed out I had a 'dangling problem'. I didn't know if you meant I did personally or one of the Men in my story had dangling issues.  I assumed it was Aragorn cause he seems to do that a lot. 
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Alassante wrote: | | I remember one time you beta'd a story of mine when I first started and pointed out I had a 'dangling problem'. I didn't know if you meant I did personally or one of the Men in my story had dangling issues. I assumed it was Aragorn cause he seems to do that a lot. |
There are those of us who are inordinately fond of Aragorn's dangly bits. |
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Ania
Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 198
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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I have had a lot of confusion about the dear old word 'until'. For a long time I haven't been able to fathom whether 'till' can be called a legitimate shortening of 'until' or whether it is just a wrong use of the shopping 'till' that has become seen as correct in real grammar.
Eg. "We'll wait till Harry's gone then pounce," George whispered to Fred.
Is this grammatically correct?
(*Bows head in shame at having just graduated with an English Lit degree and not known this*) |
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NeumeIndil
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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In that instance, Ania, I'd say it's all right because you're using a character voice. Unless it's a very specific type of character (their brother Percy comes to mind, as does Deloris Umbrage), 100% text book language isn't necessary in conversation, and might actually sound fake coming from Fred and George, Hagrid etc..
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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I second Neume: In dialogue, just type what the character would say. I like to see dialogue with interjections, sentence fragments, prepositions at the ends of sentences, and split infinitives. Because, dude, that's how real folks talk. 
However, in terms of the specific word "till"... You might see it a lot in the Tolkien fandom because it's actually an older word than "until" (which dates from the 13th century; "till" derives from Middle English, so before 900). Still, using "until" evokes a more modern, clinical narrative voice, so I'd use it for, say, Hermione Granger or Dana Scully. |
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NancyBrooke
Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 160
Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | However, in terms of the specific word "till"... You might see it a lot in the Tolkien fandom because it's actually an older word than "until" (which dates from the 13th century; "till" derives from Middle English, so before 900). Still, using "until" evokes a more modern, clinical narrative voice, so I'd use it for, say, Hermione Granger or Dana Scully. |
See? Learned something new. I always thought that "until" was the whole word and " 'til" was the informal shortening, adapted to till.
Okay. Glad to be corrected (I use them interchageably by the way, depending on the rhythm of the sentence  ).
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| NancyBrooke wrote: | | See? Learned something new. |
Me too. I don't carry all this around in my noggin... I looked it up. |
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Ania
Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 198
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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All the secrets are revealed
and thanks for clearing up a life long question for me! |
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lissaselves
Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Right here!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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*is busy taking notes*
Think I'll go search for dangling bits... ehm, I mean participles in my stories. 
Also, I just tried to find a clear rule on quotation marks for direct speech, but that's tricky:
1. I (am supposed to) write UK English, and their rules differ from those of US English
2. Book use of quotation marks is different from eg. use in papers
3. The grammar gurus don't qiute agree *headdesk*
So, finally (!) I just looked in my LOTR books: Tolkien uses single quotation marks. If it was good enough for him, it sure is good enough for me.
Except ... in The Hobbit, he used double quotation marks.  |
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NancyBrooke
Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 160
Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| lissaselves wrote: | Tolkien uses single quotation marks. If it was good enough for him, it sure is good enough for me.
Except ... in The Hobbit, he used double quotation marks. |
Lissa, you know I'm laughing with you!
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Nazgul #3 in charge of ducking & sniggering
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lissaselves
Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Right here!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| NancyBrooke wrote: | | lissaselves wrote: | Tolkien uses single quotation marks. If it was good enough for him, it sure is good enough for me.
Except ... in The Hobbit, he used double quotation marks. |
Lissa, you know I'm laughing with you! |
Yeah, that's right, you just amuse yourself at my expense!
Actually, I didn't know if I should laugh or cry abut those da*n quotation marks. I'm a good little ESL, I really try to get the grammar and stuff right, but you have to agree, it ain't easy! On the other hand, if so many of the natives can't figure it out either, then I guess I don't have to feel too bad about my 'Ooopses'. 
Hmm. Forgot to say: Great thread, NB! |
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Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| lissaselves wrote: |
So, finally (!) I just looked in my LOTR books: Tolkien uses single quotation marks. If it was good enough for him, it sure is good enough for me.
Except ... in The Hobbit, he used double quotation marks. |
Check your editions, your 'The Hobbit' might be an American publication whereas the rest might be UK editions. US editions have double quotations (adhering to US style), UK editions (or even Canadian editions) single quotations (logically UK style). You might spot the same with Harry Potter and I know that Neil Gaiman once explained the workings of that as well. Two different worlds, but for an ESL (like me as well) a journey to discover. Logically to me I stick with the style I have been taught all my life: UK style. When you spot a mixture of UK/US style, is usually a way to recognise fellow ESL's, since for us there is no universal English style.
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lissaselves
Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Right here!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhapsody wrote: | | Logically to me I stick with the style I have been taught all my life: UK style. |
Yes, I try to do the same. However, it's getting increasingly difficult.
| Quote: | | When you spot a mixture of UK/US style, is usually a way to recognise fellow ESL's, since for us there is no universal English style. |
lol - hard to avoid, I suppose. This is where one really needs a beta's help!
Thank you, Rhapsody. I'll stick with the single quotation marks, no matter what The Hobbit says. (It's a HarperCollins, just like LOTR, so it's a bit odd...) |
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NancyBrooke
Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 160
Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Could someone set me straight on this? When is 'lord' capitalized, and when isn't it?
Help!
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NB Duchess of WHY TF Cant'chu Punctuate, First Duchess of F*&(ing &*ll yur comma placement sux!
Nazgul #3 in charge of ducking & sniggering
Garo golf a conu ned i eneth aran an ir ho delitha ad |
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