[SilverMoonLady]

UHmmm... at the risk of incurring a sudden hail of rotten tomatoes, I have a question.

The maiar have undescribed powers which are only hinted at in LOTR, and not having access to most of the other sources out there, I'm wondering what limitations are put on this. We know that Gandalf can call fire to his command, assuming he has something to burn, Saruman's voice was hypnotic in its effect on other thinking beings, there are hints that weather might be affected on some level by some of them, Radagast could (if I remember correctly) speak to and understand animals. Anyway, the question is, how far is too far in stretching these powers? Could a maiar (not necessarily every maiar) have powers affecting shapes and substances of things living or inanimate? Turn a person to rock, change a person to an animal, cause inanimate objects to move at will, either temporarily or as a permanent state?
Just wondering... *discreetly kicks away the plot bunny gnawing at her ankle*
SilverMoonLady

[BittenBuggy]

Well, Gandalf did threaten to turn Sam into something 'unnatural'

I can't think of the exact wording right now... I'll go look in the FotR...

[SilverMoonLady]

Actually, didn't Sam beg not to be turned into something unnatural? Hmmm... Why can't LOTR be a nice tiny pocket sized book that magically grows when required!!! Then I could just carry the silly thing everywhere:)

[BittenBuggy]

Oh! Now I remember. In the movie Sam begs not to be turned into anything unnatural. In the book, Frodo warns him that he had better be honest or Gandalf would turn him into a 'spotted toad' or something like that... ack... let, little FotR pocket-version would be nice...

[Andreth]

Before I go into the Maiar question, here's a link for you in case it's of use. It's not a mini-FotR, but it's an online electronic version, so maybe that'll help. http://www.nwywre.com/library/tolkien/

As for the Maiar, have you read the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales? (Also one of the texts on the link above) If not, it's got good info there on Gandalf and co. But as to your question, I don't think it says anywhere exactly what powers the Maiar did or didn't have access to, but I seem to remember reading something in Letters of Tolkien that suggests Gandalf had access to more of his powers than he used. Not only were their powers weakened by their incarnate forms and the limits the Valar put on them, but they were also bound by their word not to use what powers they had.

Saruman obviously didn't have any guilt about breaking his word and using his powers, but Gandalf did. That's why his defeat by the Balrog was proof of his devotion and loyalty to the Valar, because he could have used his powers to easily defeat the Balrog, but he couldn't because it would mean breaking his word to Manwe. Thus he suffered death to stay loyal to the Valar. Gandalf was one heck of a guy. I'll try to track that reference down again if you need it.

But a friend and I have harbored the suspicion that Radagast the Brown and Beorn the shape changer were the same person. Okay, there's another reference in Letters that almost kills that theory, but I play semantics with it to avoid having it ruin our idea. There's lot of similarities between the two. So I think you're okay to expound on the Maiar's powers to a certain point, as long as it's not ridiculous. And what you're talking about doesn't sound ridiculous, in my opinion.

Hope this rambling message helps some!

Andreth/Anna

[sindohte]

[SilverMoonLady]

*grin* Thank you:)

I will definately check out that link in the morning, but your answer, Andreth, is certainly the one I wanted to hear Well, guess I'll have to lure that little plot bunny back and see what happens....
I suppose since Saruman was able to break his word out of ambition, it wouldn't be too impossible for another of the Maiar to do so if he thought he had a very good reason (twisted as it might appear to anyone else)... *wide wicked grin*

He he he Don't anybody wander the Hills of Evendim! *shakes her finger and hobbits scatter*



Oh, say... what category would this fit into then? AU? or not? (happens after LOTR, without modifying any events in the Tale of Years)

[Andreth]

I'm not sure - I think stories are only considered AU if they change or alter events in the books, so I wouldn't say it was AU then.

And Sind, I had a little essay written up on the similarities between Radagast and Beorn, but damned if I can find it now. Maybe Jillian still has a copy of it. There were things like:

When the eagles rescued Gandalf, Bilbo and Co. in the Hobbit, Gandalf told the eagles to take them wherever they would. The eagles and Radagast had a special relationship, and the eagles took Gandalf and the others to the Carrock, which was built by Beorn and near his home. In Unfinished Tales it says that Rhosgobel was the old home of Radagast, situated "in the forest borders between the Carrock and the Old Forest Road" - which would put it right about where Beorn's home was.

Radagast was a Maia of Yavanna and came along with the other Istari at the special request of Yavanna. It also sounded like he had his own agenda which Yavanna sent him for, and he pursued that during his time in ME. Beorn had all the special animals at his house, he disliked the Dwarves - both traits understandable in a Maia of Yavanna.

When Gandalf takes them to Beorn, Beorn says he's never heard of Gandalf, and Gandalf says well I've heard of you, and maybe you've heard of my cousin Radagast who lives near the southern borders of Mirkwood? And Beorn replies something cryptic, like yes, he's not a bad fellow as wizards go. Used to see him sometimes.

There were other things that were similar, but I forget them now. Yes, a good plot bunny that one is. Been running around in my head for years now, but I've never been inclined to do anything with it. Probably a hole somewhere in the theory that I've missed though.

[owleyed]

I wonder, does anyone know anything about the two other wizards a.k.a. the "blue" Istari? I know that they are mentioned in the Silmarillion (sorry my spelling is not up to par) and Lost Tales but there's not a lot about them. Grr, plot bunnies are planning to take over I'm serious! Oh Ragadast and Beorn are similar! Never noticed that before until now....yes I am dense. Oh, well I better go now and if anyone has any idea of what I'm talking about please comment.

- Owl -
"Canucks don't normally live in igloos. They usually live in things called highrise apartments, condos and houses."

[Andreth]

There's a chapter in Unfinished Tales about the Istari and there's some info in there about the Ithryn Luin or the Blue Wizards. If you don't have a copy of Unfinished Tales, here's a link for an electronic version. http://www.nwywre.com/library/tolkien/

The Blue Wizards' names according to Unfinished Tales were Alatar and Pallando. But then in Peoples of Middle-earth it says differently. I scanned this off and thought you might want to see it, if you hadn't already:

"No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast did, but more likely Saurman the chief (and already over mindful of this )came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, thought this has not yet been said. (what is most probable)...Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to have existed by Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.

Note: The reference of the last sentence is to Saruman's violent retort to Gandalf at the door of Orthanc, in which he spoke of 'the rods of the Five Wizards' (The Two Towers p. 188) Another note is rougher and more difficult:

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor worship, to stir up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East...They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakning the disarraying the forces of the East...who would both in the Second Age and Third Age...outnumbered the West.

[SilverMoonLady]

Ah, knowledge:)
Does this, do you think, preclude the existence of any other Istari coming to Middle-Earth?

[Andreth]

I certainly hope not! I've been writing a story for months now that has Ilmare as the main character and having been sent to the mortal lands. I looked everywhere and couldn't find one place where it mentioned there only being a set number of Maiar/Istari. In fact, Unfinished Tales says "‘Of this Order (Heren Istarion) the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope….the chiefs were five."

In my opinion that statement substantiates the existence of other Istari. Another thing I found interesting was the mention of the Istari losing some of their memories and powers when they were put into an incarnate body, and also there were many things they had to 'learn anew'. Playing around with how a Maia would feel after being put into a mortal body and then sent off to Middle-earth was very fun.

If you haven't read it yet, you should take a look at the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales. There are a multitude of plot bunnies there just waiting to strike.



Andreth/Anna

[SilverMoonLady]

Oh no!!! NOt more plot bunnies!!!!

They already have my address and have set up permanent residence at my ankles

Yeah, I really should get to reading the extra stuff shouldn't I, but then I wouldn't get to talk to you

SilverMoonLady

[LuthienTinuviel]

No kidding... maybe I can write some poetry off them all *rushes off*

[Andreth]