[Anna]

[sindohte]

But I think that Melkor had a crucial part to play in the creation and also the ongoing development of Arda. The other Ainur where doing creative functions once they hit ME like making mountains, smoothing out plains etc., While that is all well and good, there is still the need for that destructive element. And Melkor served his purpose in the great scheme.

[Anna]

Yes, I agree with you, Sindohte. If evil doesn´t exist and everything is peachy, how do you know life is good? When you don´t have anything to compare with, how can you tell what life is like?

Still, it´s cruel. Necessary, but cruel...

[Anna]

BTW, I looked up the Pythagorean concept of the Music of the Spheres. It made my head ache... Anything with numbers do...

[Andreth]

I don't think Iluvatar *made* Melkor evil or bad, or even planned for him to be that way. Eru only says that he made the Theme for the Music and it was up to each Ainur to contribute to it and add their own harmonies to the Music. I don't think Melkor was destined to be evil but it certainly was one of the ways he could go. Eru reacted to Melkor's dischord in the Music the way any father would react to an errant child - the first time he waves his hand patiently with a tolerant smile, the second time he gives a stern look, and the third time he's pretty P.O.'d cause he's already told Melkor twice to stop.

The way I read it, Eru didn't know what all the Music would hold until after the Ainur had sung their parts in it - then he showed them the vision of what they'd created. But he didn't show them everything, and it says that new and unforeseen events would happen in every Age.

Melkor had access to all the sections of Eru's mind and was more powerful and wise than the other Valar and he became frustrated when he couldn't use that power. So he wandered the Void, trying to find the Imperishable Flame because he thought Eru was dragging his heels about creating something. He didn't understand that Eru had a plan or that Eru was the only one truly capable of creating anything. He had delusions of power because his power was greater than the others. In Morgoth's Ring it says that by the time Morgoth was destroyed that he had more than likely convinced himself that he was a God and possibly even Eru's equal or superior.

When he wandered the Void, his suppressed power became ambition, ambition became desire, desire became pride and pride eventually led to his fall. Melkor couldn't understand Eru or his plans and so Melkor began to hate Eru. By the end he truly hated Eru and this is what led to what Tolkien calls Morgoth's 'nihilistic madness'.

What Eru tells Melkor after he contributes his dischord is that Melkor obviously doesn't understand that all his power and all that they've created all originated from Eru in the first place. So no matter what Melkor does to try to throw a monkey wrench in it, all the bad things that are done will only result in furthering the greater good of Eru's Theme. Because all the power, whether it is used for good or evil, originally came from Eru.

I don't think Eru necessarily knew what Melkor was going to do or knew how everything was going to exactly happen, other than he knew it would all turn out all right in the end. He created the Ainur as sentient beings (and later in Elves, Men, Hobbits, Dwarves, etc...) and they were capable of making their own choices. Eru wrote the Theme, the Ainur contributed the Harmonies, but Eru was the only one capable of 'translating' the music and giving it life.

So there's my long-winded opinion of it. Probably more in depth than anyone really wanted to know.




Andreth/Anna

[Meleka]

Nicely said Anna,

I must say i agree with you. The more i read and read the chapter the more i see.

From what i understand one of the reasons for Melkors power was that in the very beginning he was aware of the other Ainur. The gradually changed as the music progressed and they became aware of the other harmonies.

The fact that in the beginning the Ainur eventually had their own personality and brought their own elements to the song. They end up being able to think for themselves express their own thoughts. I believe this is what Eru planned.

Yep, thems my thoughts!

[Andreth]

That's a very good point, Pip. That the other Ainur were separated by their limited knowledge of the part of Eru's mind from which they came, and that only Melkor had the full knowledge of the others because he had full knowledge of Eru's mind.

You would think this would serve to connect him more closely with the others, but instead it seems to have isolated him, and when the others gaining understanding of their brethren and trading harmonies before the Music, Melkor was off wandering the Void alone. So when he comes back to sing in the Music his discord comes from the thoughts of increasing his power that grew during his time alone in the Void, away from his brethren. Thank you for pointing that out.

I've also always wondered if it was this separation of knowledge that made Morgoth so successful for such a long time in his efforts, because he had full knowledge where as the other Ainur only had individual sections of knowledge. And also why it always took all of the Ainur united to bring him down.



Andreth/Anna

[Meleka]

WooHoo. I said something that made sense. YAY

Your right too Anna it always took all the Ainur fighting Melkor together to defeat him.

[Andreth]

Okay, I've got two questions, if anybody's game:

1. What do you think it meant by "Manwe was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Iluvatar"? (from pg 21 of my 1st edition copy)

I know that in the beginning, and actually for the majority of the time he spent writing the histories, Tolkien had the Valar as being family units with brothers and sisters, and also having children i.e. Nienna was the sister of Namo, Yavanna was the sister of Manwe, Orome was the son of Yavanna, Eonwe was the son of Manwe, etc...

But all of those connotations had been removed, yet here we still have Manwe being referred to as his brother 'in the mind of Iluvatar'. It says that Melkor was the only one with full access to Iluvatar's mind, so we know Manwe wasn't equal in power. I know all of the Ainur are called 'brethren' but does this mean that Manwe was Iluvatar's favorite? How do the rest of you interpret this relationship between Manwe and Melkor?

2. A lot of people interpret Tolkien's cosmological myth to have parallelisms to the Bible, despite the fact that Tolkien repeatedly stated there were no Christian allegories of any type in his stories. But then if you go by the New Critics theory, it's the reader's interpretation that's important, not the author's intention.

I myself don't see any biblical connections, but I've always been interested to hear the opinions of those who do. Anybody here see it that way?



Andreth/Anna

[Thuriniel]

Biblical parallels ... sorry Prof. Tolkien, but I see plenty!

I'm sure everyone knows this ... but just to refresh our memory ... Lucifer, "Son of the Morning," rebelled in Heaven and was cast down with one third of the angels who chose to follow him. He was powerful, he was beautiful, and he was the offspring of God as all the other angels.

Melkor was the "discordant" note in the music planned by Ilúvatar. He was the rebel, just like Lucifer was. He was one of the most powerful of the Ainur, just like Lucifer was powerful among the Angels.

Lucifer wished to have control over the Earth ... and so Melkor wanted to have dominion over Arda and be worshipped.

I'm sure there are more, but I'm in a bit of a hurry.

Lastly ... it has been mentioned before ... in order for good to be, there must be evil, or we would be living in a Utopia. Melkor and Lucifer represent the evilness of the world. They have their role to play in the plan envisioned by the higher mind. The Angels and the Ainur are the obedient children of God and Ilúvatar.

In a more modern setting (rather than the biblical setting), Catholic saints (or the Angels) could be said to represent the Ainur ... they watch over us and. In Catholic tradition, you pray to them for certain things. They are also the intermediaries between men and God. Each one has their own dominion. If you wish to get married, you pray to certain Saint, if you need good weather you pray to another Saint and so on. There are patron Saints that watch over the waters, others that watch over the hopeless, others that watch over children ... you name it!

As I said ... I just see plenty of parallels.

[Viv]

[Thuriniel]

[Thuriniel]

What selection are we reading next? Just so that I can start reading ...

[sindohte]

Thuriniel,

I'm at work at the moment so I don't have my copy of the Silm handy. Info about what will be read next will be posted later this evening to give people a head start for Tuesday.

[BittenBuggy]

Ack... we're not going in sequence? Did I miss something?