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Ania
Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 198
Location: Britain
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 Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:02 pm Post subject: Bane of Mary-Sues, hillarious 'Guide to the Mary-Sue' |
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Has anyone else been on this site? It's:
http://www.timelady.net/unbroken/full.html
and it's aboslutely hilarious, I haven't laughed so hard in ages, it's brilliant and various topics, including:
Mary-Sue's Appearances.
Mary-Sue's Seduction
Enemies of Mary-Sue.
The Types of Marty-Stu
Mary-Sue's "beloved" parents
to name a few, Mary Sue is well and truly: 
Heehee. just have a look! |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, very funny. And engagingly written. I admit to getting a chuckle out of Suemockery. And I've also done some Sueparody.
But I've also in all seriousness written several blatantly Sue OFCs. I'm not going to defend them, and I live in constant expectation of seeing my own name mentioned on groups such as Deleterius.
Still, while we're poking fun at Sues and Suethors, shouldn't we mention that Tolkien was a bit of a Suethor himself?
Last edited by Viv on Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ellbee
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 172
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | Still, while we're poking fun at Sues and Suethors, shouldn't we mention that Tolkien was a bit of a Suethor himself? |
Shhh! We don't talk about that. 
But seriously, where do people think writers get their inspiration for two-dimensional kick-ass warrior sues, or most-beautiful-woman-in-the-world sues who make the hero fall in love at the very sight of her, even though she is written completely devoid of personality? Not like Tolkien wrote any of that, is it? 
-Ell
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well its true... How many popular romance novels have we all read where the leading lady was dirty blonde, scruffy-nose-picking hick? I mean really folks...
I love poking fun at Mary-Sues as much as the next person, but I have read a few fics who try to be so anti-sue that it totally ruins the main character. As readers, we subconciously WANT the characters to be what in essense a 'mary-sue' is, thats why its called FICTION. It is unrealistic and illogical, but thats humanity for you...
Thats just playing the devil's advocate... On the other hand, there are some god-awful Mary-Sues out there, that are completely insane and ridiculous, not to mention painful to read. But just because a character is Sue, does not mean its a bad fic, or even bad characterization.
Sorry... Hannah feels very strongly about this point, can anyone tell?
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Maram68
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Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 535
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | Well its true... How many popular romance novels have we all read where the leading lady was dirty blonde, scruffy-nose-picking hick? I mean really folks...
I love poking fun at Mary-Sues as much as the next person, but I have read a few fics who try to be so anti-sue that it totally ruins the main character. As readers, we subconciously WANT the characters to be what in essense a 'mary-sue' is, thats why its called FICTION. It is unrealistic and illogical, but thats humanity for you... |
As a recognized Suethor (loved that, Vivchen!), I read the link with dread and , with reason, accepted the fact that my OFC's manage to cover each and every one of the Sue-factors.
Anyway there are slight arguments FOR a Sue:
1. it is damn difficult to empathize with a non-Sue OFC
2. I write what I probably would like to read.
3. If the Suethor fails in creating empathy between the reader and the Sue, THEN the Sue is really really bad.
Well, I can't help it. Thank God I don't write for a living 
Anyway, I am glad and flattered about everyone who read my work and enjoyed it, in spite of the Sues.
And those who read it and didn't enjoy it, well, I shall try to do better next time and you are free to SUE me 
Huggles,
C.
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Like Hannah, I too feel very strongly about this point ...
I read this essay a little bit on the defensive (and somehow expecting my fic to be mentioned), but I was glad to see that there are worse MarySues out there than mine (I especially dislike the perfect teenage girl dropped in Middle Earth who screams and curses, is prettier than Arwen and a better archer than Glorfindel).
I totally agree with BB and Claudia, we don't want to read about ordinary heroines. There is nothing exciting about a plain person with no especial talents ... life is already ordinary enough, if I want a taste of it, I'll just look around !
As long as the MarySue is well-written, has a background, is believable, and I can somehow sympathize with her, I have no problems whatsoever with MarySues. The moment they are so perfect I just want to puke, they are so victimized they cannot even wipe their butts, or they are speaking in modern English slang with a very annoying teen attitude, I just drop the fic.
I've encountered fics in which the author has tried so hard to present a non-MarySue that the thought of a mousy-looking plain human girl getting Legolas to fall in love with her had me laughing hysterically. Let's face it ladies ... elves dig beauty. They are a bit shallow, to put it midly (I think pretty much everyone knows what the effect of a pretty jewel has in them, I'm amazed Gollum didn't start out as an elf!). So I see no logic on Legolas falling in love with a human that looks like a mouse.
And finally ... don't we all have some MarySue traits in us? Talents, natural beauty, magnetic personalities, intelligence. I'm sure that each one of us has a little bit of MarySue in her ... hey, deep mahogany eyes anyone? (and proud of it -- I was in shock to see "deep brown eyes" as a MarySue trait!)
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Viv
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Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Maram68 wrote: | Well, I can't help it. Thank God I don't write for a living
Anyway, I am glad and flattered about everyone who read my work and enjoyed it, in spite of the Sues.
And those who read it and didn't enjoy it, well, I shall try to do better next time and you are free to SUE me
Huggles,
C. |
Hee. 
I've defined Sues my own way -- basically as poorly developed characters -- and Cyrene et al certainly don't fit in that description. My guess is that many people have their own secret definitions of Sue. That link was just one person's interpretation of Sue, and even she admitted that some of those Sue templates can be written well. |
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Ania
Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 198
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:30 am Post subject: |
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I completly agree with what was written in reply to this thread, BUT, there is an extreme difference to fics that are written that are actually believeable and are classified as perhaps along the lines of a Mary-Sue, However, Thuriniel, 'The Bond' is a masterpiece and a beautiful piece of writing in its own right, just as 'Don't Panic' is a brilliant piece of writing, although they follow a popular story-line, they are believable and well written, as opposed to the fan-girls who walk out of their house, into Rivendell and into Leggy's bed
But seriously, I don't think that this piece was written for fics such as yours, Boz's, or any other pieces of fiction that might follow a popular storyline. I just found it amusing because it's taking the rip out of fangirl stories, and I personally don't count your fic (or many others on this site for that matter, that are written by excellent authors) can be classified as a conventional Mary-Sue. |
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Maram68
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Ania wrote: | | ... the fan-girls who walk out of their house, into Rivendell and into Leggy's bed |
Okay, THAT thought would make my day ... running out of the house now 
Anyway, Ania, no one felt criticized by your kindly shared link.
In my case, I am just very aware ... but not offended.
| Viv wrote: | | -- and Cyrene et al certainly don't fit in that description. |
And Vivchen, you are suppossed to like Cyrene and Co.. After all, you are my beta !
Love,
C.
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Lord, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the Courage to change the things I can and the Wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I may have to kill because they piss me off. |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't offended at all by the article or by you sharing it, Ania! Even though I cringe everytime "MarySue" is used as a word to denote bad fiction and to characterize any type of OFC, I'm well aware that there are very poorly written Sues out there.
I did laugh with the article, I found it incredibly amusing, witty and well-written, and definitely geared toward the huge amounts of horrible teen-fantasizing-no plot-get in Leggy's bed fiction that are innundating the LotR fandom lately. The worst part is that the smut is quite horrible as well *shivers*.
| Quote: | | 'The Bond' is a masterpiece and a beautiful piece of writing in its own right |
Thanks, I'm glad you're enjoying it ! (you're making me blush!)
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GypsieRose
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 105
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for pointing me to this post--hilarious stuff, and I'm hoping Gypsie and I can make use of it when we start on the third "Debbie" story. Wouldn't want Debbie to miss out on any of the major Mary Sue cliches!
--Rose |
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Roisin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 449
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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As far as Mary Sue never having parents, hardly ANYONE in Middle Earth has parents. I think Tolkien had some issues about it.
Roisin |
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Moralanqua
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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voilet eyes.... *shudders*
There is no excuse. After you have been around long enough to know a SUE, you have no reason to use the old cliched rubbish.
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Roisin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 449
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Well to some people any OFC is a Sue. I freely admit that I recognize some of those cliches a little too readily,  but I figure the purpose of fanfic is to entertain. We're not writing Mrs. Dalloway here.
Not that there's any excuse for bad fic of any sort. Hey, our OFC has grey eyes; does that mean she's not a Sue? 
Roisin |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Hey, our OFC has grey eyes; does that mean she's not a Sue? |
As long as they are not star-lit, I think she'll be OK .
MarySue's eye color was the part I found the most puzzling about this essay. I agree that violet is a very common "Sue" eye color, but I know that I've read a lot of Sue fics in which the heroine had green eyes. Same case with grey.
Now, about brown, I don't think I've read many Sues with brown eyes. That one caught me off guard. I have brown eyes and I've always thought them quite boring. Until I started to read Orli fics. Brown took on a whole different new meaning then !
I think that the moment you make the eyes sparkly, you have a Sue eye-color in your hands!
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