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slydog
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 32
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 Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Viv!
The idea that she was melkor's counterpart never crossed my mind!
whoa! did thurengwethil die or did she merely leave her earthly house the was sauron did? in that case ... she could still be around in LOTR. theres some fodder for u fanfic writers ( I would too but I enjoy reading more than writin).
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Sorcia
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 197
Location: Gods, Sean in glasses, how dishy
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:36 am Post subject: |
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While I found this section easy to read and quick too, was just wondering if anyone knows if there is a webpage out there that charts the Valar with a quick referrence summary? Just would make a fanfic writers job a little easier to do a quick look up than thumbing thru the chapter sorting out who is who, what they are in charge of etc.
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Ahem... Nobody hate me for this blatant self-promotion!
http://www.openscrolls.net/fanfic/story.php?no=530&chapter=3
I have a 'story' entitled The Silmarillion in 30 Pages or Less posted on this site. It was put on hold to make room for my millions of other mini-projects, but will resume within the year.
That link is the Account of the Valar chapter, and it is something like you were asking.
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Just because he is not considered one of the Valar any longer, did he ever have a female counterpart? |
Well, Ulmo and Nienna were also "unspoken" for, so I don't think that it's a requisit to have a counterpart.
| Quote: | | was just wondering if anyone knows if there is a webpage out there that charts the Valar with a quick referrence summary? |
I just memorized them ... yes, I'm that much of a geek  . Recommendations? Read BB's fic, I'm finding it incredibly helpful!
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Meleka wrote: | | I have to say i found this chapter easier to read (but i must admit that has a lot to do with Andreth's A Veiled Light fic). |
Thank you, Pip! That's very kind of you to mention my little Silm-soap opera. And you gave me a double compliment because I was hoping to show people that the Silm isn't completely overwhelming and has some very interesting characters and stories in them.
| Quote: | | Just because he is not considered one of the Valar any longer, did he ever have a female counterpart? |
In the Book of Lost Tales it says that Morgoth had a son with a troll named Fluithuin or Ulbandi. Eewww. In Morgoth's Ring, though, it says that Morgoth attempted to ravish Arien, the Maia who carries the sun. Guess he had odd tastes in women.
The part I found most interesting in this chapter was the story about Osse serving Morgoth for a time until Uinen captured Osse and brought him back to Ulmo. Doesn't look like he got his anger problems under control because it says that his delight in violence never went away and that he would rage in his wilfullnes without warning.
So that makes me wonder - did Osse go over to Morgoth because Morgoth's power was so strong or was it because Osse had some weaknesses in his personality that made it easier for him to be swayed? And how would that apply to Sauron? Was Morgoth powerful enough to sway him against his will or did Morgoth merely play on weaknesses that Sauron already had?
Sheesh, I hope that made sense to somebody!
Anna |
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Sorcia
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 197
Location: Gods, Sean in glasses, how dishy
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:04 am Post subject: |
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BB, that is fantastic and now also bookmarked  .
Coles Note version..perfecto:)
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:14 am Post subject: |
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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sindohte
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 1621
Location: Rubbing up against an Elf
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: |
So that makes me wonder - did Osse go over to Morgoth because Morgoth's power was so strong or was it because Osse had some weaknesses in his personality that made it easier for him to be swayed? And how would that apply to Sauron? Was Morgoth powerful enough to sway him against his will or did Morgoth merely play on weaknesses that Sauron already had?
Sheesh, I hope that made sense to somebody!
Anna |
Your ponderings make sense to me. My personal theory of evil is that people are not overwhelmed by the sheer power and majesty of an evil being/force, but rather by a small weakness or flaw. That is how evil is able to take hold. To use the beloved Boromir for an example, if the Ring as an extension of Sauron had said - "Hey kill that Frodo Baggins and give me back my ring," Bozzie would have been like, "WTF?" However Sauron knew that Boromir's desire to help his country and loyalty to his father was the chink in his armor. That explains his temporary lapse into Ring madness. Boromir was not an evil character, but during that brief period he had the capacity to do great evil if he so desired. However since he was at heart a noble character, he turned back to the right path and made the ultimate sacrifice.
So that explains to me why Osse temporarily went over to the dark side, but was able to be brought back to the side of good again.
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phoenixqueen
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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I found it interesting since someone got onto the discussion of Melkor's female counterpart, the tiny sentence about Varda.
| Quote: | | Out of the deeps of Ea she came to the aid of Manwe, for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made. |
I read this as saying that if Varda rejected Melkor, maybe she set an example to the other female Valar and they also rejected him, but he hated her more because of the example she set to the others?
*shrugs* That's just my tiny take on it. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, I definately got the idea that Melkor had the hots for Varda and she snubbed him.
Actually, if you think about it that way, it makes a lot of sense. Melkor being evil and all. Like the Oklahoma City bombing, the guy only did it because his girlfriend wouldn't have sex with him. (That is delving deep into the psyche, which is Sind's area) but women make men to crazy things.  Its a frightening power really.
But no, I never consitered a counter-part for Melkor, mostly because he seemed so absorbed in himself.
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Anna
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 548
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, I agree with both phoenixqueen and BB on this.
I think Melkor and Varda had a little thing going on in the beginning. But, when Varda realized all Melkor wanted was for her to stare at him with adoring eyes and say oooh and aaah whatever he decided to do, she dumped him for Manwë, the more sensible (and boring?) choice. 
And, well, of course Melkor was utterly selfabsorbed, but these kind of guys always seem to need a beautiful, loyal and adoring female in the neighbourhood. |
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