| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
sindohte
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 1621
Location: Rubbing up against an Elf
|
 Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:13 pm Post subject: Theoden's Body |
 |
|
Okay folks I need your able assistance. After Theoden fell in battle, there was a period of time before the big funeral procession that carried him back to Edoras. Where was his body stored in the interim and how was it preserved? For some crazy reason I think that I read he was placed in a cask of liquor until it was time for him to go back home. Is this right or am I getting him mixed up with John Paul Jones?
_________________
abandon thought, and let the dream descend... |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Roisin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 449
Location: U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Um, I think you are mistaken about the cask of liquor. 
Roisin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NancyBrooke
Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 160
Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ooohhh I love these questions, and for that reason my LOTR is always near my computer (insert huge geek icon here).
After the battle of the Pelennor fields, Theoden's body was taken to the Citadel of Minas Tirith, laid upon "a bed of state" before the dais and surrounded with 12 torches and 12 guards of both Rohan and Gondor, hung with cloths of green and white and gold etc. etc. There is more detail early in the "Houses of Healing" chapter.
Then, when the company leaves MT for Rohan, Rivendell and the Shire they retrieve the body from the Hallows and Rath Dinen (when exactly it is taken there from the Citadel I'm not sure).
How it was preserved? Who knows! Might have been pretty yucky by the time they bury him in Rohan, some 150+ days after his death (March 15 - August 10).
Anyone know anything about ancient/medieval embalming techniques?
Hope that helps. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Warning ... this might be a little icky to some!
| Quote: | | Anyone know anything about ancient/medieval embalming techniques? |
I can tell you a little about the situation in Europe during medieval times concerning death: they buried the bodies as soon as they thought they were dead because of the many diseases that were around at that time (i.e. black plague). Of course, a lot of people were buried alive due to this  .
Death was a constant in Medieval Europe due to disease, wars, and not very hygienic handling of food (food poisoning ... most of the time it wasn't a question of someone wanting to poison the King, but just a question of very unhealthy food handling). In Paris commerce was done in "Le Cemetiere des Innocents" ... meaning, food was sold there, trades were done, business taken care of ... among open tombs that revealed bodies in different estates of decomposition. Later on the cemetery was moved to the outskirts of the cities.
All this familiarity with death translated in literature as "La Danse Macabre" (sorry if I'm killing the French language here ... it's been a few years since I took this class  ). In this dance, death dances with every status of society, from the King to the peasant, both in the secular world and the religious world (Pope-priest). This illustrated the belief that no one could escape death.
So, no, I doubt that they embalmed bodies during medieval times, as you can see there was a whole "death culture" going on at the moment, and it seems to me that they really were obssessed with decomposition and the ugliness of death ... so why preserve the bodies? Death only shows what we are to become, dust again.
Maria |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dolarabee
Site Admin
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 175
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Thuriniel wrote: | | In Paris commerce was done in "Le Cemetiere des Innocents"... All this familiarity with death translated in literature as "La Danse Macabre" (sorry if I'm killing the French language here ... it's been a few years since I took this class ). |
No worries, Maria. That's pretty good indeed. Maybe you should teach my hubby a bit.  It's "Le cimetière des innocents" though, with an i instead of an e. Just trying to be helpful. I'll shut up now.
do.
_________________
Je sais de la vie qu'elle se termine souvent au lit,
Et que d'autres ont bien plus de chance trépassent de rire ou de jouissance,
Mais pire que la mort qui vient c'est l'amour qui ne vient jamais.
~ Daniel Bélanger |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moralanqua
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: Scotland
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
WARNING - MINGING STUFF BELOW!!!
Depending on the particular beliefs of the nation, it was either:
Ablation of the heart (for later buriel in a sacred place), blood letting (exsanguination) and then the skeleton would be boiled to remove any flesh. The skeleton would then be buried. The heart; which was considered by many to be the root of the soul, was treated as a holy thing and would be placed in tomb or in a chamber of a holy place.
In Theodens case, i think the preservation was done by salt-curing. This would be following exsanguination. Removal of the heart and disposing of the viscera (which decompose quickly) would be first. Then the body is washed in wine and and fragrances before salting. Then its wrapped in animal hides for a length of time.
I think that Theodens corpse endured this and was then reclothed and placed on funeral procession stretcher.
Wine -alcohol for preserving
fragrances - dead bodies smell
salt - absorbs liquids and preserves
animal hide - keeps body from collapse or exploding if exsanguination was not done properly, plus the heat aids the evaporation of the grape from wine and leaves the alcohol.
_________________
I am no longer posting on the Forums. If you need me, I am lurking in the archives, reading and reviewing. You can also catch me at Demented Indigo! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1211
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Don't know if this will be helpful to you - it all depends on how much stock you put in the information from the Letters of Tolkien. I use the information myself, but I know a lot of people have different opinions about it. Anyway, he says -
'The Numenoreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' - the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs.' And, speaking of the Numenoreans, he says, 'The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they leavished wealth and art on tombs and memorials.' Gondor was the last surviving Numenorean state. So that's for Gondor since that was where the body was kept.
Rohan seemed to be a different culture though, but they obviously kept tombs for the dead also. In the Appendices of Return of the King, toward the back somewhere in the languages Tolkien says that even though he based the language of Rohan on Old English, Rohan's culture was not based on that culture, i.e. not mediaeval. Some people lean more toward it being a Viking-type culture, although Vikings usually burned the bodies or set them off in boats instead of placing them in tombs. I guess it's really all a matter of opinion.
But so my long ramble won't be completely useless, here's a link that might help. Good luck!
http://www.sellersfuneralhome.com/pages/services/historic.html#medical
PS Honestly, if it were me, I'd just have him in a coffin and the body never seen. Then you wouldn't have to worry about it at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks do ... I knew I had probably mispelled something ... it's very confusing to take a class in Spanish at an American university and deal with French lit at the same time. The mess in languages is amazing !
Merci!
Maria |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sindohte
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 1621
Location: Rubbing up against an Elf
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you everyone for all of the information regarding Theoden's body and funeral customs. I will have to see if some of my newfound knowledge will be worked into a story somehow.
_________________
abandon thought, and let the dream descend... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GypsieRose
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 105
Location: Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here's what Tolkien wrote in The War of the Ring about Théoden's body:
| Quote: | King Théoden is laid on bier in Hall of the Tower covered with gold. His body is embalmed after the manner of Gondor. Long after when the Rohirrim carried it back to Rohan and laid it in the mounds, it was said that he slept there in peace unchanged, clad in the cloth of gold of Gondor, save that his hair and beard still grew but were golden, and a river of gold would at times flow from Théoden's Howe. Also a voice would be heard crying
Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden Fell deeds awake.
Forth Eorlingas!
when peril threatened. |
By the way, I don't think Gondorian embalming is the same as Egyptian embalming. It sounds like they don't wrap bodies, for a start. I always imagined something more advanced and semi-magical, that worked better.
Also, despite what Tolkien says, I've always thought of the Gondorians more as the Medici, with their beautiful tombs by Michelangelo, than the Egyptians. One important difference between the Egyptians and the Gondorians is that the Egyptians had a pretty firm theory about what the afterlife was like, and they furnished their tombs like homes.
--Rose |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Live Journal Feed
