[Moralanqua]

We may not be writing literary classics but we still shouldnt be exposing the world to trite and then getting upset when someone labels it or hates it.

There are OFC, banal OFC, overused concept OFC and then there are godawful marysues who are a representation of laziness and inability to develop a character.

The writres who actually try, who worry and who take feedback are the good ones. Its the spasticated teenyboppers who jot down their immature orli fantasies and expect it to be loved who are the real sue authors.

[MoonRaven]

This is an interesting topic for me. I'll admit that I derive a dark pleasure from reading some of the critiques at deleterius and Lord of the Rings Sues . On the other hand, I know virtually *all* of my juvenilel attempts at fan fiction were exercises in Sue-ism, so if an author seems to be trying, I think it is more useful to pass on tips and help than scorn. And frankly, the teen-girls writing Leggy-luv fics aren't real concerned with producing quality fiction or honing their skills, so any constructive criticism is met with hostility anyway.

I think a lot of people who write fanfic do so out of a love of the characters/universe that someone else has created and a desire to participate in that world. I think Mary Sue speaks to this desire to put ourselves in that world and interact with these characters.

I *have* read some great fiction that used only canon characters but on the other hand, I have read equally compelling work that has introduced original characters. Some writers define a "Mary Sue" as *any* OFC, but I tend to be more lenient and have great respect for someone who can take an OFC and make it work. It's a question of skill and--botom line--how enjoyable the read is. A classic Mary sue is interesting only to the author and perhaps a few of her close personal friends. A well-rounded and well-written OFC can allow the reader to see the world through her eyes and to participate vicariously with her.

So for me, writing OFC is a challenge I set for myself--to try to make the OFC work within the context we have been given.

[KhazarKhum]

When I started with Ariashal, I was told that, by definition she was a Sue because she was an OFC!

This despite the fact that Tolkien only mentions a handful of female individuals, and even fewer say or do anything. Yet ME has a substantial population, so females must exist. And so if you wish to write about a non-canon female, you run the risk of being accused of creating a Sue.

What makes one character a Sue and another anything but is, I think, a matter of degree. Personal squickometers may also be involved--mine is set rather low for Legomances, of which I have seen few that worked in any meaningful way. (Most fail the plausibility test. )

[Mitasova]

I never understood the "every OFC is authomatically a Mary-Sue" mindset. OFC may be the center of the story and not be a MS. She may be a canon character's love interest and still not be a MS. Heck, she can be a Tenth Walker and not a Sue (albeit that is a tricky one). Ariashal, imo, is a perfect example of just that (ok, not a Tenth Walker). It also puzzlez me why some authors take a female name from the Appendixes, create a hcaracter almost from the blank and then announce proudly: See! She's not a Sue! She's canon! I mean, Lothiriel? Finduilas? Arwen? Honestly? They're all but names that one can spin whatever way one likes. Yeah, we're given some basic (*very* basic, mind) idea of what those women were about, but personalities, purposes, desires? Not so much. Take Finduilas. We know that Denethor loved her, but did she love him? Unknown. Denethor loved his elder son more then the younger, but what about their mother? Again, unknown. What were her family circumstances like? Ditto. So can anyone explain to me how writing Finduilas differs from writing an OFC? Yet writing Finduilas is ok but writing an OFC in similar sircumstances is ridiculed. I don't get it.

For me Mary-Sue is defined by two traits:

1. She disrupts canon (i.e. relatives of canon characters who are unaccounted for, places that are not on the map, abilities that doesn't exist ib canon and such).

2. She makes canon characters act OOC.

If these two are out of the equation, I'm always willing to give a story a shot.
==

Tanya

[KhazarKhum]

[Maram68]

[LuthienTinuviel]

Ever tried DARK brown eyes...lol... definite turn off

In any case... yes, GREEN is a VERY common colour of eyes for Mary-Sues....

Has anyone tried "eyes the colour of vomit" yet? Hehe...

[GypsieRose]

The guide seems to be down! At least, I haven't been able to get it to open since last week. Does anyone know of an alternate URL for it, or have it saved somewhere?

--Rose