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Salendola
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:39 am Post subject: |
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I think Denethor doesn't recieve the respect he deserves in this movie! he's such a strong character in the books. I personally cannot understand what moved PJ to make him jump of the citadel. and in flames no less! He was supposed to die with dignity, letting out a final scream before he died. not running around like a senile old fart! 
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phoenixqueen
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think Denethor doesn't recieve the respect he deserves in this movie! he's such a strong character in the books. I personally cannot understand what moved PJ to make him jump of the citadel. and in flames no less! He was supposed to die with dignity, letting out a final scream before he died. not running around like a senile old fart! |
That's just it though. PJ had to play to all audiences, and unfortunately, it is more interesting from a non die-hard standpoint to have a character like the Denethor in the movie doing something so incredibly stupid. No one wants to sit there and watch him be all noble while committing suicide, not while there is a rampaging battle going on outside the city.
Also, he was suffering from a tiny bit of insanity at this point in time, which was what PJ was undoubtedly trying to portray without going into too many details at such a late scequence in the movie. Yes, it was disappointing from the standpoint of a LotR fan, but for someone who hasn't read the books, it is an interesting viewpoint of the character.
There is no way that he couldn't have been suffering from a mental breakdown at this point, if he's not out there leading his men, is about to commit suicide and take Faramir with him, and won't even listen when Pippin tries to make him see reason. People suffering from insanity have been known to do odd things, so throwing himself from the tower isn't that strange.
[quote] (Not to mention it was kind of funny when Gandalf smacked Denethor with his staff when he was being an idiot and ordering everone to abandon their posts.)
I also don't think it was in character for Gandalf to beat Denethor with his staff. This is Gandalf the White, the guy who stopped Legolas' arrow in midair.[ /quote]
I think it was very in character. Just because he's Gandalf the White doesn't mean that he hasn't retained his personality, and he always came across to me as a character that didn't have time to waste on people who were being idiotic. Besides, this had been a very tense part of the movie, and PJ probably felt that it was necessary to lighten up the mood by doing something like that. I know for a fact that during that part, the entire theater I was in burst out laughing and applauded for Gandalf.
I do think (and hope) that we'll see more of Denethor in the Extended Edition, because I do think that he's an interesting character, but after associating with my younger brother (who is studying to get into the movie industry as a director), I know that you have to take artistic license at some points in order to reach the whole audience, and to get the point across that you're trying to make.
| Quote: | | Denethor was a fantastic opportunity to let people see the more human side of him...as was done with Gollum. I'm really sorry that opportunity was wasted. |
In the grand scheme of things, Denethor was not as important a character as Gollum, which is why PJ could take the time to develop Gollum. He introduces a brand new character in the third movie, which is risky enough, but he can't afford the time it would take to fully flesh out his character. I mean, it took two whole movies to flesh out all of Gollum, and compared to that, Denethor is just not that important. He's a great character, but a minor one.
Sorry, but that's just the way I feel. PJ did a great job with the constraints he had to work in.
phoenixqueen |
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Salendola
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 2
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SilverMoonLady
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 1201
Location: Breaking in a Brandybuck... *wicked grin*
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 7:43 am Post subject: |
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The fact remains though that in many ways, and for strictly hollywoodian reasons, some things were done that don't make good sense, and are against cannon to boot.
1. the women and children (except those working in the houses of healing and the few lads retained as messengers) were all sent out of the city several days before the assault. This is just common sense. You don't leave them exposed, much less in the first circle of the city, when an army of hundreds of thousands of ravening orcs are coming your way when you have isolated mountainous settlements they can hide in.  It is of course more dramatic to see screaming women, but not something that would happen... besides, it was honestly quite tense and frightening enough to see those massed forces beyond the walls and those relatively few soldiers watching them come, particularly after Faramir's last charge.
2. public words of despair/cowardice/dissent. Not gonna happen in a well-trained soldiery, under seasoned command and threat of war. You just don't come out and say "Wow, we're screwed, and what's more, our leader knows we've been screwed for some time now!" And the whole Denethor losing it and screaming like a lunatic for everyone to abandon his post.... Nevermind the fact that the only way out of the city is blocked by the opposing forces, but it was badly done. And I find it thoroughly out of character for both Gandalf and Denethor (not to mention the guards who just stand about and watch; these fellows are so loyal to the steward that Beregond has to kill one of his friends to get into Rath Dinen to save Faramir)
There's more but that's the clearest of them all. I really do think that Noble did quite the job in portraying him, when he wasn't going over the top as in 2.; I particularly like how sharply guarded he is in his first words to Gandalf and the predatory look he gives Pippin at times. Tolkien described him as a gray spider at some point, sitting in its web, and gathering plots and information.
So... loved and hated it. Can't stand logic gaps:)
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GypsieRose
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 105
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 9:19 am Post subject: |
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[quote="phoenixqueen"] | Quote: | | PJ had to play to all audiences, and unfortunately, it is more interesting from a non die-hard standpoint to have a character like the Denethor in the movie doing something so incredibly stupid. No one wants to sit there and watch him be all noble while committing suicide, not while there is a rampaging battle going on outside the city. |
I don't agree. I think the collapse of a strong and once-noble character is much more interesting than a weak character who just goes nuts--and I don't think it would have taken much more screentime, if any. The keys would have been to show us a stronger/more competent Denethor before he cracked, and to handle the moment of despair differently.
| Quote: | | I think it was very in character. Just because he's Gandalf the White doesn't mean that he hasn't retained his personality, and he always came across to me as a character that didn't have time to waste on people who were being idiotic. |
But Gandalf's grouchy personality never took physical form before. He yelled a lot at, say, Pippin, but he has never been given to smacking people around. If he had to stop Denethor physically, there were far more elegant ways to handle it than beating him unconscious. And it also does a disservice to Denethor to make him an idiot at that point. That's a change from the book, and an unneccessary one.
| Quote: | | I know for a fact that during that part, the entire theater I was in burst out laughing and applauded for Gandalf. |
Same here, but just because audiences like it doesn't mean that was the best way to handle the scene. People laugh and cheer when Denethor plunges off the wall too. I actually like the "shooting star" image, but I think his death should have been a solemn moment, NOT a time for the audience to go wild. (And why does nobody ever cheer when Sauron's tower explodes? It's only Denethor who causes this reaction.)
| Quote: | | In the grand scheme of things, Denethor was not as important a character as Gollum |
Fair enough, but I think he was as important as Boromir--who was only in half of one movie and was a very well-rounded character with whom we could sympathize even as his flaws brought him down. And since Gollum is pretty much all evil in the third movie, Denethor could have filled the niche of the conflicted character you could sympathize with somewhat even though he makes the wrong choices and does some pretty horrible things.
If we'd had that Denethor, I truly believe everybody would be talking about how brilliant he was, and some would be saying he was an improvement over the book--the same kinds of things we often hear about Boromir. I think a really effective Denethor, rather than a one-dimensional loony, could only have made the film stronger.
--Rose |
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Mitasova
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 103
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Denethor? |
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| phoenixqueen wrote: | | I think watching him set fire to the building would have been a bit more interesting, but unfortunately, PJ couldn't spend a lot of time on the man. I know people might disagree with me, but I just don't see how trying to portray him any other way would have done anything except make people more confused. Adding in the second Palantir or not, he was just too complicated a character to devote a lot of attention to in the time frame that PJ had to work with.phoenixqueen |
Well, having D order to light the beacons, as he did in the book, might have freed a fair amount of time that had been uselessly spent on Pippin's acrobatics, as well as improve D's characterization. Or, I dunno, cutting Legolas's prancing on the mumak (sacrilegious as it may sound). Or omitting the Fiery Plunge Of Doom. Or finishing the weeping and the moping in the Havens twice sooner.
| Quote: | | No one wants to sit there and watch him be all noble while committing suicide, not while there is a rampaging battle going on outside the city. |
How'd you know that? I think you did the audience unjustice, here. People are not generally that dumb as to prefer a weak and useless nutjob to a flawed, but amazingly strong man who'd been overcome with despair to the point of insanity. They mourned Boromir, after all.
| Quote: | | PJ did a great job with the constraints he had to work in. |
True. I think fannish attitude towards various liberties the PJ's taken depends largely on their fellings about the characters who's been subjected to those liberties. I remember the fuss about Theoden's portrayal in the TT - people thought PJ made him too weak. I, otoh, was pretty cool with that. Now, I like Theoden, don't get me wrong, but not to the degree that I like Denethor. I don't want to diss PJ's work, I think the movies as a whole are a groundbreaking experience deserving of all the praise it gets. But Denethor's bastardization pisses me off, probably because of my personal feelings toward this particular character. And try as I might, I just can not overlook that flaw for the sake of the whole and enjoy the ride.
==
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