[Anna]

[sindohte]

[SilverMoonLady]

Ahh... Good smut is a joy, as is a deep engrossing read, but only when well done, imho. It's just not like pizza, where the best and worst you've ever had aren't too far apart in quality. Well-written smut, a crafted gem of lascivious imagery (whether surrounded by a quality story or not), is like a five-star feast, to be delected and shared. On the other hand, something obviously thrown together with neither skill nor care, is rather like lumpy gravy: disappointing and of little interest. The same certainly applies to stories in general, but you get the idea... Leave it to me to compare sex to food!

[Viv]

I've watched erotica (aka, PWP, smut, etc) take a beating among "serious" fic writers in the last several weeks. To hear some folks talk, you'd think there was no such thing as high-art smut. DH Lawrence might have a thing or two to say about that.

I write and read a little of everything, variety being the spice of life and all that. In my opinion, PWP is just as valid and potentially artful a subgenre as fluff, slash, het, hobbit family reunions, or elf angst. As with all those other subgenres, it's all a matter of how the author handles the subject matter. (No, I didn't mean that dirty. )

But I really wish folks would stop piling the scorn on PWP. Maybe that makes them feel like their particular subgenre is superior?

[Thuriniel]

When I don't have much time, I read PWP. When I have lots of time in my hands, I read full-length novel fics. They both work for me.

In longer fics, if they're well written, they have well defined characters, and they're well developed, then I don't mind at all the lack of smut. But if the fic is all of the above and I'm treated to smut as well, then all the better !

[miriel361]

Well it's like this. I will read everything except westerns. I've read almost every English or Irish classic you've heard of, I've read most of the Greeks, including a rather boring history of the Peloponnesian War (spelt incorrectly I know). I've read all the orignal Arthur stories, I've also read numerous German and French classics in the original, including the works of De Sade. Sadly I have not read all of the American classics although I have read Henry Miller's works including his smut (probably the smuttiest thing I have ever read).

In the end it comes down to this: A book must entertain the reader. No one has the right to dictate what a person should or should not enjoy.

[sindohte]

[BellaDonna]

I tend to read both. Lately it's been more Smut but I like reading full length stories with sex scenes in them. But truthfully I like both but the lengthy stories more!

[Vulgarweed]

That's a good point. I wonder if some of the reticence of some Tolkien fanfic writers to seriously engage sexual themes is descended from the reticence of Tolkien himself. There are certainly some readers drawn to Tolkien's writing by his lack of explicit sexuality, and view any attempt to put it in there as disrespectful or blasphemous in some way. Add to that some writers who think that very lack of spelling-out means "anything goes" in terms of gapfilling, and of course you have conflict.

Part of the problem is also technical--the language of sex. It's hard enough to write things in keeping with Tolkien's style in some way without introducing a whole area of experience Tolkien himself provides no models for. An excellent hobbit-slash writer I know recently had a very long dialogue in her livejournal about "cock" and "prick" and words like that--some readers objecting to them because they sounded too "modern". In fact, the OED lists "cock" with that usage as 17th century, but one person on the thread found it used that way in a poem from the Middle Ages! Either way, it's certainly older than many words Tolkien does use (and also very suitable for an agrarian, pre-industrial society). The desire to replicate Tolkien's formal language, though, does lead to abominations like "throbbing hobbithood" and the like, which is quite rightly a source of derision.

[Haleth]

First of all, let me say that my favourite stories are small tales about big things or well written fill in the spaces of Tolkien's world. For examples of the first, see anything by fileg or Erin Rua. For an example of the second, see Oath Renewed by Inglor.

The following will likely offend absolutely everyone. As someone with no sense of self preservation, I'm going to say it anyways.

As Sindohte said, part of the reason that some people frown upon PWP set in Tolkien's world is very likely because of the distinct lack of smut in the Professor's work.

For a staunch purist, Laws and Customs applies. The extension of this is that for the elves, sex has a deeply spiritual meaning. It's an interesting concept, but one which is often either ignored or explained away in the a PWP of any style, het, gen or slash.

Another part of the reason could be human nature.

While this is not always the case, the stories that get the most hits and reviews and the highest ratings often owe more to the current popularity of the characters than the quality of the writing.

Romance is extremely popular and is a form of escape for many readers. I know that I'm guilty of something like this myself. When I see critically acclaimed describing a movie, I will often avoid it like the plague. If I want to be depressed, I will watch the news.

But imagine the frustration of a writer whose stories are very well written but who is essentially ignored because their tales are distinctly non-smut and non-romance. It has to be frustrating to see a less than sterling example of writing garner umpteen million reviews while a well written work that an author has sweated blood over languishes at 30 hits and no reviews.

This doesn't excuse being disrespectful of an entire sub-genre, but it may help to explain the disdain.

I guess the bottom line is that, if one is concerned with such things, one must know one's audience and write appropriately. But that's an entirely different discussion.

Just my two cents.

[Viv]

[Vulgarweed]

Also, since when do "laws and customs" = actual behavior?

Maybe for the Eldar more often than for us, but still.

[sindohte]

[Vulgarweed]

Well, I don't get *huge* amounts of feedback for my smut either -- but then, it tends to be about less-popular characters. I rather suspect popularity of the characters involved is very often the overwhelming factor whether there's smut or not. Which isn't terribly surprising, really.

Don't forget that in the general World Out There, there is a long, long puritanical tradition of sex being considered a "dirty" subject unworthy of serious artistic or intellectual treatment--that anyone who's "too" interested in it is a pervert or a floozy, that researchers and artists devoted to it are somehow morally suspect or intellectually stunted, that it should only be used for making babies or selling cars. (Primarily thought of as peculiarly American, but I think that some form of that notion is in some people everywhere). It's much bigger than just fanfic, but cultural attitudes can't help but surface here too.

I mean, look at the title of this thread!

[sindohte]