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Mitasova
Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 103 Location: Russia
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 3:55 pm Post subject: Action vs Angst |
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In the vein of Serious fic vs Smut thread, I'm now curious: what kind of fic do you prefer: one that delves deep into the characters' heads sometimes at the expence of the plot, or one that concentrates on the plot and describes characters' thoughts and personalities mainly through action and dialogue?
Now I understand that the ideal solution would be the mixture of both, but I freely admit that if I must choose I always prefer plot-heavy stories to angst-heavy ones.
Opinions?
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Tanya |
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Haleth

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 538 Location: The ruins of Tharbad.
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I'm definitely in category b.
Internal musings can only hold my attention for so long. A story, especially a longer tale, has to have a plot and some kind of action to keep my interest. _________________ Books would not be read, and pipes would not smoke. The day slipped out of his hand, running aimlessly to waste. JRR Tolkien. The Lost Road |
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Panneth

Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 0 Location: Manchester/London
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Aren't internal musings an integral part of a plot-based story? All action is fine as long as there are reasons for their actions. For instance A fights B and B dies is fine, but why was A fighting B and what did B do to deserve death?
I don't think you can have a well-balanced fic without angst or plot. One goes hand in hand with the other. We all think before we act, at least we try to. _________________ ~ Emma |
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Viv Challenge Admin

Joined: 24 Apr 2003 Posts: 71 Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Panneth wrote: | | I don't think you can have a well-balanced fic without angst or plot. One goes hand in hand with the other. We all think before we act, at least we try to. |
Exactly.
In ficdom, I'm always surprised by how often folks miscategorize these two, often claiming that their work is "adventure" when really it's just one character's ranty monologue whilst hiking along on somebody else's adventure.
I think the most heinous problem with interior-monologue pieces is that they aren't stories. Stories, by definition, have a beginning, middle, and end. Usually they even have problem-resolution arcs, too. The best ones have complicated variations of the above.
Fics that just put us inside of Gandalf's head for a day or so may be somewhat interesting, but they should never be called stories.
[/rant]  |
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sindohte

Joined: 13 May 2003 Posts: 1621 Location: Rubbing up against an Elf
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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I totally adore reading and writing stories that crawl up inside a character's head and then allow me to explore a point of view that isn't my own. However, as with all things there must be a balance and having a plot is a prerequisite to a decent story imho. _________________ abandon thought, and let the dream descend... |
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SilverMoonLady

Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 1201 Location: Breaking in a Brandybuck... *wicked grin*
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I am personally a total angst fiend, both as a writer and a reader, but it is, as someone else noted, impossible to hold my attention without some sort of plot. There needs to be external stimulation for the things going on on the inside to have any reason to exist. That the action that needs to be taken, whatever it might be, has an internal effect on the character in question, possibly even provoking a serious inner crisis, still requires the action, and some kind of resolution (though they are rarely as pat as the physical obstacles can sometimes be).
IMHO, of course.
*currently on a steady diet of humility* _________________ Suffering an again off again connection with life...
The joy of motherhood: what a woman experiences when all the kids are in bed.
*local PHF union rep* *tart of the week*
Shelob the Cookie Baker |
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Mitasova
Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 103 Location: Russia
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Panneth wrote: | | Aren't internal musings an integral part of a plot-based story? All action is fine as long as there are reasons for their actions. For instance A fights B and B dies is fine, but why was A fighting B and what did B do to deserve death? |
But that's the thing: the best way to describe characters' motivations, imo, is to show them using action and dialogue. Not having A launch a lengthy inner monologue explaining what a bloodthirsty fiend B is and what a torment A's life has been since B killed his pet hamster when they both were six. At the point of a fight it has to be all clear from A and B's previous interactions.
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Tanya |
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sindohte

Joined: 13 May 2003 Posts: 1621 Location: Rubbing up against an Elf
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mitasova wrote: | | But that's the thing: the best way to describe characters' motivations, imo, is to show them using action and dialogue. Not having A launch a lengthy inner monologue explaining what a bloodthirsty fiend B is and what a torment A's life has been since B killed his pet hamster when they both were six. |
True. I personally don't want to read some long internal monologue and if I find myself starting to write one in a chapter, I delete it immediately. The best way to get across a character's motivations is to show it through actions vs. simply telling the reader. However, one major complaint that I have is reading stories where the author's conceptualization of the character is about as subtle as a slash of red paint on a piece of white paper. And in cases like these, the author attempts to make up for this shortcoming by throwing in a lot of action.
A character's actions should illustrate their motivation and by doing so, you can have angst and action happily co-existing in a story. So in my head at least, it is an artifical distinction to say angst vs. action. They both go together hand in hand for me. _________________ abandon thought, and let the dream descend... |
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miriel361
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 417
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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It's what you do rather than what you say. We can say all sorts of things about ourselves. We can think all sorts of things about our selves and our values. But only when we are put on the spot, do we really understand ourselves.
For instance, I know someone who is very involved in the church, actually preaches at you from the bible but when it comes down to it, she wouldn't walk a metre to help someone. But she would call herself a Christian soul. I call her something else, but that is beside the point
Let us return to Tolkien, Aragorn for instance, never considered himself to be kingly material, but actions forced him to acknowledge those qualities within himself.
As for the word 'angst', I have never really understood what it means. It is a German word meaning 'fear' so I always expected to be terrified out of my little brain. I have come to the conclusion that this is not so... So if someone wants to give me a definition, I would gladly welcome it. |
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Mitasova
Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 103 Location: Russia
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Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| miriel361 wrote: | | Let us return to Tolkien, Aragorn for instance, never considered himself to be kingly material, but actions forced him to acknowledge those qualities within himself. |
Actually, that would be the return to Peter Jackson (sorry, my inner purist is sometimes difficult to contain)
| Quote: | | As for the word 'angst', I have never really understood what it means. It is a German word meaning 'fear' so I always expected to be terrified out of my little brain. I have come to the conclusion that this is not so... So if someone wants to give me a definition, I would gladly welcome it. | "Fear" was the original meaning, but in the fandom it's changed. I don't have any definitive meaning, but as I see it, "angst" is inner conflict of some kind (intellectual or emotional). Atleast that's the meaning I use the word in.
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Tanya |
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Ellbee

Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 172
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Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mitasova wrote: | | miriel361 wrote: | | Let us return to Tolkien, Aragorn for instance, never considered himself to be kingly material, but actions forced him to acknowledge those qualities within himself. |
Actually, that would be the return to Peter Jackson (sorry, my inner purist is sometimes difficult to contain)
Tanya |
Aragorn's uncertainty about his future was at least vaguely touched on in the Appendices. I think one of the best things Peter Jackson did was bring that doubt to the forefront and allow us to see the character's growth, making Movie!Aragorn a much more interesting and compelling character than boring, vanilla Book!Aragorn.
And I'm with most everybody else, you really need a mixture of both, although I prefer to think of it as introspection, rather than angst, which has more of a woe-is-me-my-life-sucks fanfic connotation. Because who wants to read pure "He did this, then he did that" with none of the thought process behind it. Very Dick and Jane.
I would like to see more of what I think of when I think "action" - sword fighting, pitting the characters against the wilderness, that kind of thing. Something that gets the heart racing and the adrenaline flowing. For what is an action/adventure fantasy book, Lord of the Rings doesn't seem to get much action/adventure fanfic. Too bad.
-Ell
Edited becausein looking it over I realized my post was practically incomprehensible. Yikes.  _________________ If anyone's looking for me, I'll be in the van with Eomer.
Last edited by Ellbee on Thu May 27, 2004 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mitasova
Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 103 Location: Russia
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Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Ellbee wrote: | | Aragorn's uncertainty about his future was at least vaguely touched on in the Appendices. |
If I remember correctly, those glimpses've been all before his actual heritage and destiny were revealed to him. From that point on, none of them remained.
| Quote: | | I think one of the best things Peter Jackson did was bring that doubt to the forefront and allow us to see the character's growth, making Movie!Aragorn a much more interesting and compelling character than boring, vanilla Book!Aragorn. |
I like book!Aragorn just fine and think he is very interesting (although sometimes annoying) character. For me, he's definitely not "vanilla". However, I agree that PJ did a great job with movie!Aragorn. I liked him too, but in entirely different way from book!Aragorn.
| Quote: | | For what is an action/adventure fantasy book, Lord of the Rings doesn't seem to get much action/adventure fanfic. Too bad. |
Word word word. Complete agreement with you here. I sort of can understand where the writers are coming from, though. The very fact that the LotR is such an action-heavy book and almost total absence of the characters' internal thoughts in it just calls for "filling in the blanks". Plus, creating a logical, complicated, coherent plot *and* fitting it in Tolkien's extremely detailed universe without making said universe crack at the seams is a heck of a feat.
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Tanya |
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Viv Challenge Admin

Joined: 24 Apr 2003 Posts: 71 Location: Texas
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Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Scribe writes scorchingly fantastic adventure LoTRfic. My favorites are her modern-day fics, but "Daughter of Rivendell" is also a wild ride with loads of fighting and some very nice in-character chatter. I'd recommend all of her stuff to folks who like adventure LoTRfic. |
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LuthienTinuviel
Joined: 29 Dec 2003 Posts: 354 Location: Dancing in the clouds.
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Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'm one of Scribe's fans sitting around waiting for her to add more! ^_~ I quit giving reviews to the stuff I read after too many "wow/cool/fantastic!" kind of reviews I tend to dish up. I wonder when the next chapter for End of Days' coming up...
To me, angst cannot be without action, unless it's the short and sweet kind, like "Something Real" I forgot by who... Drags your heart into a lake... (now here I go again...).
I guess, both compliments each other. But the low down would be action cannot run without some angst, but angst can run without action. _________________ }}}}}Life's a journey you unfold with each step.{{{{{ |
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GypsieRose

Joined: 09 Jul 2003 Posts: 105 Location: Illinois, USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Mitasova wrote: | | "Fear" was the original meaning, but in the fandom it's changed. I don't have any definitive meaning, but as I see it, "angst" is inner conflict of some kind (intellectual or emotional). Atleast that's the meaning I use the word in. |
I'm sort of puzzled why people use the German word when there's a perfectly good English word--anguish--to express the same thing.
As for the question of which I prefer...of course I agree that a mix of the two is ideal. But if the choices are angst without action/action without angst, and both are equally well-written, I think I'd prefer the angst. I'd rather have a long exploration of how (say) Boromir views the world than a detailed description of a long orc fight. Maybe because, while action is fun, so much of it can be done by anybody...but a character's thoughts belong to him/her alone.
--Rose |
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