[BittenBuggy]

Discussion of the Quenta Silmarillion - Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië will begin officially on Monday, May 17

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.


**Since the chapter 'Of Thingol and Melian' was so short, I decided to post them both at once.

[Andreth]

BB, this one has a line that supports your Melian-Thingol spell idea, where it says that Elwe awoke from his 'long trance'.

I'm really surprised that you haven't posted on this chapter yet. I thought you'd be all over the introduction of Feanor and his sons.

Did anyone notice that Aredhel sounds like a rebellious female even in Valinor? It's no wonder she took Eol for her husband. She sounds like one of those women who would be very attracted to the JD-types.

I love the description of Tuna, with its golden streets and crystal stairs. Everytime I read this chapter it makes me think of later on when Earendil comes to Tuna and it says the dust from the streets glittered like diamonds upon his feet. It must have been a beautiful place.

Also where it talks about Feanor and his sons never staying in the same place for long, how they always wanted to wander and look for the unknown. Tolkien made sure to establish their restless nature from the very beginning and show us that they were different from the other Elves in some ways.

I've always wondered what the significance was of Celegorm being more attached to Orome than to Aule, like the rest of his family. Did I miss something later that he used this for? Because I have to admit, the Feanorians are one of my weaker Tolkien points. I've never looked at them much other than the basic facts. I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.


Anna

[BittenBuggy]

[BittenBuggy]

Brace yourselves.


“In time the hosts of the Vanyar and the Noldor came to the last western shores of the Hither Lands. In the north these shores, in the ancient days after the Battle of the Powers, bent ever westward, until in the northernmost parts of Arda only a narrow sea divided Aman, upon which Valinor was built, from the Hither Lands; but this narrow sea was filled with grinding ice, because of the violence of the frosts of Melkor. Therefore Oromë did not lead the hosts of the Eldalië into the far north, but brought them to the fair lands about the River Sirion, that afterwards were named Beleriand; and from those shores whence first the Eldar looked in fear and wonder on the Sea there stretched an ocean, wide and dark and deep, between them and the Mountains of Aman.”

Geography is one of the hardest things in the Silmarillion to keep track of. There are countless accounts of millions of different locations, all with different names, sometimes several different ones for the same place. This can make a first time reader very frustrated. I would suggest getting a map of Beleriand (which can be found either in the back of your copy of the Silm or at the Encyclopedia of Arda). It really does make all the difference when you are trying to understand the story. Thinking Fingolfin is next to Ascar in Ered Luin will do you absolutely no good.

The ‘narrow sea filled with grinding ice’ is very important because later it will be named as Helcaraxë, the plain of ice that Fingolfin leads the remaining hosts of the Noldor over in order to join his brother Feanor who abandons him. (I can’t wait until ‘Of the Flight of the Noldor!)

“Now Ulmo, by the counsel of the Valar, came to the shores of Middle-earth and spoke with the Eldar who waited there, gazing on the dark waves; and because of his words and the music which he made for them on his horns of shell their fear of the sea was turned rather to desire.”

Oh cant you just picture that! I just see this magnificent shape (very Posiden-like) rising up out of the ocean. I think it is sweet how the Valar attempted to persuade the Elves rather than to force and frighten them.

“Long they remained by the coasts of the western sea, and Ossë and Uinen came to them and befriended them; and Ossë instructed them, sitting upon a rock near to the margin of the land, and of him they learned all manner of sea-lore and sea-music. Thus it came to be that the Teleri, who were from the beginning lovers of water, and the fairest singers of all the Elves, were after enamoured of the seas, and their songs were filled with the sound of waves upon the shore.”

This is a nice tidbit. The Silmarillion is very overpowered by the Nolor, so it is always nice when the Teleri and the Vanyar get some attention. I’ve always thought the Teleri to be very beautiful in their own right (but an almost imperfect beauty), kind-hearted and slow to anger (though they got plenty angry when their ships were burned). The Vanyar I find incredibly dull in their perfection. Ingwe holds little interest for me because he doesn’t quite seem real.

“When many years had passed, Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of the Noldor and of Finwë their king. Who grieved at their long sundering from the Teleri, and besought him to bring them to Aman, if they would come. And most of them proved now willing indeed; but great was the grief of Ossë when Ulmo returned to the coasts of Beleriand, to bear them away to Valinor; for his care was for the seas of Middle-earth and the shores of the Hither Lands, and he was ill-pleased that the voices of the Teleri should be heard no more in his domain. Some he persuaded to remain; and those were the Falathrim, the Elves of the Falas, who in after days had dwellings at the havens of Brithombar and Eglarest, the first mariners in Middle-earth and the first makers of ships. Círdan the Shipwright was their lord.”

Wow, this certainly points out how old Cirdan is! It has always surprised me that he survived through all the wars and ‘issues’ of Middle Earth until the end of the Third Age. He definitely seemed like a hearty elf. But then again, he wasn’t stationed on any of the War Plains that most of the Noldor lords were, so he was for the most part protected. Which is why Fingon sends his son Gil-Galad to Cirdan for safekeeping.

“But Olwë would be gone; and at last the main host of the Teleri embarked upon the isle, and Ulmo drew them far away. Then the friends of Elwë were left behind; and they called themselves Eglath, the Forsaken People. They dwelt in the woods and hills of Beleriand, rather than by the sea, which filled them with sorrow; but the desire of Aman was ever in their hearts.”

I think this is sad and pathetic on several different levels. On one hand, I can appreciate the desire to wait for your friend and king. On the other, what is the real chance in finding him? I must say, if I had been the Valar, I would have left them to whine and feel ‘forsaken.’ It just bugs me...

“But when Elwë awoke from his long trance, he came forth from Nan Elmoth with Melian, and they dwelt thereafter in the woods in the midst of the land. Greatly though he had desired to see again the light of the Trees, in the face of Melian he beheld the light of Aman as in an unclouded mirror, and in that light he was content. His people gathered about him in joy, and they were amazed; for fair and noble as he had been, now he appeared as it were a lord of the Maiar, his hair as grey silver, tallest of all the Children of Ilúvatar; and a high doom was before him.”

Whoa, that’s very cool! A ‘lord of the Maiar’ is quite the compliment. That might be partly why I’ve never been able to visualise Thingol the way I can with most of the other Elves. He is just so... above it. He is also very difficult to write about – I’ve tried! He reminds me of Elrond a lot in his love for Luthien and being so loathe to give her up. But of course, if you had the most beautiful daughter in the world, I would beat off males – both mortal and elf-kind with huge sticks.

“And Ulmo granted their request, and at his bidding Ossë made fast the island and rooted it to the foundations of the sea. Ulmo did this the more readily, for he understood the hearts of the Teleri, and in the council of the Valar he had spoken against the summons, thinking that it were better for the Quendi to remain in Middle-earth.”

Why do you think that is? That the Valar thought it better for them to stay rather than to complete the journey?


“But the island was not moved again, and stood there alone in the Bay of Eldamar; and it was called Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle. There the Teleri abode as they wished under the stars of heaven, and yet within right of Aman and the deathless shore; and by that long sojourn apart in the Lonely Isle was caused the sundering of their speech from that of the Vanyar and the Noldor.”

Please note, that is another important location! Get maps people... lots of them I will have to agree with Anna on the most gorgeous description of Túna... It is breathtaking.

“Manwë and Varda loved most the Vanyar, the Fair Elves; but the Noldor were beloved of Aulë, and he and his people came often among them.”

That tells us a little something about the Valar themselves. I see Manwe and Varda as being more alike in temperament with the Vanyar, wise and calm and fair. Whereas, Aulë is a bit naughty and impulsive (as is depicted when he makes the Dwarves). It reminds me almost of patron saints, Catholics ask certain saints that they can identify with or have a special need for to pray for them. In this case, the Elves can talk right to their ‘saints.’

“And it came to pass that the masons of the house of Finwë, quarrying in the hills after stone (for they delighted in the building of high towers), first discovered the earth-gems, and brought them forth in countless myriads; and they devised tools for the cutting and shaping of gems, and carved them in many forms. They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their labour enriched all Valinor.”

I think that is an excellent tribute to the character of the Elves. They found beauty in the world and wished to share it, rather than to hold it for themselves. The Silmarils are of course, the exception, but Feanor was trouble from day one so we can hardly blame the entire Elven race.

“Finwë was King of the Noldor. The sons of Finwë were Fëanor, and Fingolfin, and Finarfin; but the mother of Fëanor was Míriel Serindë, whereas the mother of Fingolfin and Finarfin was Indis of the Vanyar. Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart.”

Ok – collection of my favourite quotes from the Silmarillion! Right there.. I love that. The Sons of Finwe have always represented different aspects of embodied character. None of the brothers were weak (Fingolfin certainly wasn’t... BB drool moment ) Just for the record – I’m not a Finarfin fan.

“The seven sons of Fëanor were Maedhros the tall; Maglor the mighty singer, whose voice was heard far over land and sea; Celegorm the fair, and Caranthir the dark; Curufin the crafty, who inherited most his father's skill of hand; and the youngest Amrod and Amras, who were twin brothers, alike in mood and face.”

Again, there is another example of Tolkien giving each character his own personality and making them come alive for us. He gives us enough guidance, yet enough leeway that LotR genre is perfectly suited to fanfiction writing.

“Therefore Ulmo, submitting to the will of the Valar, sent to them Ossë, their friend, and he though grieving taught them the craft of ship-building; and when their ships were built he brought them as his parting gift many strong-winged swans.”

I have a deep affection for Ossë because of his strong show of character. He loved the Teleri, yet he was more concerned with their happiness than keeping them to himself. He even helps teach them the craft that will sail them away from him. It is so selfless and noble... *tear*

“Finwë was king in Tirion and Olwë in Alqualondë; but Ingwë was ever held the High King of all the Elves. He abode thereafter at the feet of Manwë upon Taniquetil.”

Oh, that is powerful. At the feet of Manwe. That is an incredible passage. I am just in awe.

“Fëanor and his sons abode seldom in one place for long, but travelled far and wide upon the confines of Valinor, going even to the borders of the Dark and the cold shores of the Outer Sea, seeking the unknown.”

Anna, I will second your comment on the establishment of the Feanorians’ desire to wander and to roam. That is an excellent perception that I hadn’t really considered before you mentioned it.

“and there also were many other creatures that have not been seen upon Middle-earth, and perhaps never now shall be, since the fashion of the world was changed.”

Doesn’t that just beg to be written about? I don’t understand the lack of Silmarillion-based pieces of fan-fiction. *Sigh*

Well, that ends the beginning of my favourite chapters. Though you will really see me go crazy in chapter 18

[inglor]

I have a hard time liking the Feanorians, the cause of so much trouble. You can see the beginings of the Rebellion in the fact that they wandered so much. That passage makes me chuckle though, I see Feanor and Nerdanel with a bunch of kids roaming about Valinor in an Elven version of a Winnabago.

I've thought the same about Aredhel too, she even seems spoiled to me.
Artanis is somewhat of her nemesis. Although they had the athelticism and stubborness in common, that's about it. Artanis was, and I'm going on memory here, not whimsical as I have Aredhel characterized. Aredhel also seemed stubborn to the point of being irrational, at least Artanis would listen to reason.
One fic that really seems to capture Aredhel for me is Philosopher at Large's Leithan (sp?) Script. Though that can be a chore to wade through, she (I think Philosopher is a she, I could be wrong) has Aredhel as a petulant, arrogant, stormy, mercurial woman and that seems to nail it for me.

I've always seen Finarfin as the geekish philosopher of the Brothers.


As to the lack of Silfics: I am surprised too, though being such a hard book to read tends to weed out all but the true believers. And there is such little dialog and direct character development, you have to use a lot of imagination to craft good canon characters.
In my opinion, Silfic writers seem to be the closest to what "real writers" would call real writers. With the Silmarillion, UT, and HoME, we are given the bricks, mortar, and lumber. We have to build the rest. While with LoTR, you are given an entire house ready to move into.
Not saying I'm a real writer but I think I am drawn to the Silm because there are so many possibilities and freedom to make my own fantasy and still keep a margin of believability. Oh yeah, and the Silm is about Elves!


A little OT but I've been wanting to say this so flame if you want.

Tolkien describes Artanis as wanting to follow Feanor to thwart him and yet every time a Finarfinian and a Feanorain get in close proximity, trouble erupts with the Finarfinians getting the short end of the stick. Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond, Celebrimbor in Hollin

Inglor

[BittenBuggy]

[Andreth]

BB wrote a long post

*THUD*

I'll reply after the paramedics resuscitate me.

[BittenBuggy]

Oh bugger off Anna

[Andreth]

[BittenBuggy]

[Thuriniel]

Sooo ... here's where things get complicated! I had the hardest time reading this chapter -- I just tell myself that English is not my mother-tongue and I should go easy on myself, but it's still frustrating when I find paragraphs that I need to read three and four times to understand !

Even though I found the reading hard to follow, I must confess that I did love the underlying order that Tolkien presents when describing the Elves; the different Princes and their children, the description in character of each one of the groups (it's obvious since the beginning that the Noldor have a restless spirit, while the Vanyar seem more calm and tranquil), and their different talents and doings.

I'm an organizing freak, and the fact that I can label and classify Elves really appeals to me (yes, it's bad to stereotyype, but sometimes there's some truth to it!).

[inglor]

Thu,
I have giant beast of a Marty-Stue set in the Sil still under construction, so don't feel too bad.

Sorry for the OT post BB, I had to

Inglor

[Thuriniel]

[inglor]

It is my first efforts at fanfiction and I have learrned a great deal about writing since then.(ie. in its present form sucks) It is nowhere near completion and is already about 15000 words, other stuff keeps getting in the way
But I keep hearing that so I think I'll give it another go

[BittenBuggy]