[SilverMoonLady]

Ok, new fic brewing, but there's a niggling question I need to settle in my mind before totally falling on my face:

1. To my understanding, the people of Rohan, excepting the King's household and a few others, spoke a language different from Westron (though distantly related to it, as it came from the same root, the same way spanish, french and italian do).
Am I remembering this accurately?

2. Just who *would* know Westron in Rohan? How common would it's usage be among its people, inside and outside of Edoras?

Any input would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

[Elb]

1. In the films, Old English is used, which is somtimes similar (hardly ever, actually) to English (Ie. The word for dream comes from OE "drêam", meaning song.) I'm not sure how in keeping this was to Tolkien, I'm an elf girl, but if you wanted some authentic speedch, OE will go nicely. Eowyn's lovely lament in TTTEE is in OE, from Beowulf. Very in keeping with Tolkien.

2. In the Appendices, we learn that the lords of Rohan spoke Westron well, and fluently, being Edain, the same as the Men of Gondor. I assume that Rohan was like Belguim, most speak either French or Dutch, but most know both reasonably, and the educated know both fluently. I'm not sure how much of that situation I've grasped either, so forgive me if I am wrong.

[Beruthiel]

Hi,

I could not resist delurking after that last comment. You are somewhat right about Belgium and languages. Minor remarks:

we have three official languages: Dutch (6 million speakers); French (4 million) and German (70 000).

Most people also speak english (the most educated are fluent speakers). The number of people fluent in both dutch and french is however in decline (especially among the native french speakers) due to ongoing federalization of the belgian kingdom.

After this (boring) interlude, let me just add the following: I am thoroughly enjoying this thread (as I am sure my fellow lurkers are too).

Relurkingly,

Beruthiel

[Ania]

Sil,
if you want to use the old english, as I have in past fics, there's a very good dictionary here:

http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm

many who right Rohirric fics think that it's as close to the language as can be understood, hope it proves useful.

[daw]

These language questions get tricky. Merry seems to understand most of what is being said around him by the Rohirrim, which suggests that they were speaking Westron even among themselves.

[SilverMoonLady]

Thanks guys:) Hmmm, well, I was aware of the 'Old English as Rohirric' the Professor went with to represent it, as well as the fact that the nobles of Rohan spoke Westron well (Theoden was born in Gondor while his father stayed there in a sort of self-imposed exile from his own dad, who was apparently a bit of a prick and alienated all his children with his attitude).

Merry actually understood everything said in Westron, though the accent was odd, but he didn't understand what the Rohirrim sang as they rode, though it felt familiar.

I guess I'm just wondering how well visiting hobbits, like Merry, would understand and be understood by commoners in Edoras, as well as how Lothiriel would fare when brought to this land to wed Eomer.

[sindohte]

The whole issue of the culture shock that both Lothiriel and Eomer would experience upon traveling to their respective countries has been something that I have wondered about. And whether they shared a common language or not would be a big factor.

[miriel361]

I live in a country where regional dialects used to be so strong that two villages - a mere 4 km apart could not understand one another. This was particulary so when villages were cut off from one another in the winter. (In the summer they had to work in the fields etc)


Even today, villages 20 km apart will have different dialects and vocabulary. With a little bit of effort from both sides, it's not very difficult to understand one another. The reasons for this globalisation of the language ( a modern thing) are radio, television, school, freedom to travel.

The first three reasons are obvious, but I would just like to touch on the last one. Until the about 1700 most people in Europe were not free. They were tied to an area or lord. Thjs meant that if they wished to travel (although most would wonder why on earth they should) they would have to get the lord's permission.

I can imagine it was the same in Rohann. The normal people would not need to learn a 'high' form of their own language, let alone a foreign one.


Just my dribble on the matter.

[SilverMoonLady]

Thank you Miriel!
So if you sent a preteen who has lived 'somewhere' in Rohan to Edoras to serve in Meduseld, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that after two or three years she might speak and understand Westron in a limited way, but wouldn't be beautifully fluent?
And the concept of national pride as tied to speaking one's own language would not be unusual?

[GypsieRose]

[miriel361]

Silver Moon Lady.


I can imagine that a girl living in the outskirts and coming into the big city of Edoras would be absolutely overcome by the splendour, beauty and richness of her new surroundings.

She would probably have to learn a lot- a higher form of the language or at least a larger vocabulary. The daughter of a poor farmer would never have seen, let alone know the words for various pieces of cutlery, furniture, .... Would not have known most of the polite forms of speech, and would probably have had unpleasant habits like spitting, burping at the table, drinking soup out of the bowl and wiping her nose on her sleeve.

Having seen the splendour of her capital city and being permitted to wait upon the lords (who would appear very knowledgable and wise), she would be very, very proud of herself and her people.

I don't like the word nationalistic at all.

Nationalism is also a relatively modern term ( about 1800). Before this time, people tended to have more in common with people of their own station. Hence the upper class would have more in common with 'foreign' upper class rather than with the lower classes of their own people. Besides the upper classes of different countries often intermarried.

Because of the lack of travel, people would not so much have identified with a 'country'. more likely with a king, or local lord.

[miriel361]

Sorry - fogot the most important bit.

I mentioned that upper classes had more in common with upper classes. That continued with language.

In England, the upper classes spoke French for many years. Some could not even speak English. And hence, many French words found their way into the English language. For instance, the animals, which were tended by the lower classes had English names: sheep, cow, pig. When they were set before the upper classes for dinner however, they were called by their French names: mouton, boef, porc... Today, we still have seperate names for the prepared meet of animals: mutton, beef, pork. (you see how it worked. )

So, to answer your question, if she served the upper classes, she would come in contact with Westeron and in turn, the more important Westeron words, that she used everyday, would become part of her (and the other servent's vocabulary.)

What I am trying to say in a rather difficult manner is that the servents would have had their own vocabulary that would have been a mishmash of the languages they were hearing every day.

[SilverMoonLady]

Wow, thanks:) Lots of good info here:) I will now go play and hopefully not embarrass myself!

[GypsieRose]

[Elb]

Beruthiel, thank you for that infomation! I tried to think of an example, and Belgium just came to me. Also, I thought Quenya grammer was difficult. It's child's play compared to Dutch! What a language!

But back to the topic:

I usually takes someone about three months to learn to speak a language fluently, if surrounded by it. Also, if you need any help with the Old English, just e-mail me, but I must warn you, my grammer is restricted to "The king likes neither boats nor swords", "The men are riding" and "the bishop greets the thane", and things of that sort. Just do not ask me to take a pysiology class or conduct a light opera.