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Alassante Virtual Village Mod

Joined: 10 Dec 2004 Posts: 20 Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:36 am Post subject: Another question! This time about Half Elven children |
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I know that Elrond and his children were granted the life of the elves but I want to know if my human OC and an elf have a child, would the child:
1) have elf ears?
2) have elven mannerisms/senses?
3) have long life?
4) be able to go to the undying lands?
5) if they were with another elf and had a child (making the child 75% elf) would they be granted the above? _________________ Nagzul #2 - The Nazgul of Shmoove
Crucio! Because stupidity should be painful!
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 Posts: 665 Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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I guess you could use what we know of Eldarion as your basis.
So what do we know about Eldarion ? _________________ ~ boe an phân pedi ‘lam dadui ~
~ everyone should speak a second language ~ |
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SpaceWeavil

Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 23 Location: Looking at shiny things
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Thuriniel wrote: | I guess you could use what we know of Eldarion as your basis.
So what do we know about Eldarion ? |
Thing with Eldarion was that his mum had already chosen to give up the life of the Eldar before he was born though. Way I look at it, is that Arwen and Aragorn's kids would probably have the same sort of deal as Elros' children - in that they were human and didn't have 'the choice', but that they were longer lived than other Edain (usually up to about 400 odds in the case of the line of Elros).
It was also said (somewhere in the text, that I can't recall now) that the gift of foresight ran through that particular line, so you could argue that some elven characteristics / abilities would be passed on (and this is the reason for the line of Elros having heightened abilities in that way).
As for pointed ears, I don't think it says anywhere in canon that elves have pointed ears at all, and there are a lot of references in HoME to elves and men being physically similar, which would seem to suggest that they don't have the ear thing. But since it's nice in the films and whatever, I think it's generally accepted in fan fiction. Way to look at it maybe is through genetics. You could feasibly argue either way, and just say they inherited either the human or elven physical characteristics.
I'm never sure with the whole half-elven thing, sa to whether you could have a half-elven child with fully elven characteristics. I mean, in most cases (like in the line of Dol Amroth) the children were considered Edain, weren't they?
The exception being Elrond's family, but there are all sorts of different races mingled in there. I mean, Elwing is regarded as elven, even though her grandfather was human. Also, I could never work out what Dior was? I mean, was he considered elven or human? Or just half-elven?
Elrond's children, I have always thought, were sort of special cases, because Elrond and Elros were the first to be given that specific choice, between the life of the Eldar and of the Edain.
So basically, to sum up all that rambling, I don't know.  _________________ Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
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Alassante Virtual Village Mod

Joined: 10 Dec 2004 Posts: 20 Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Thuriniel wrote: | I guess you could use what we know of Eldarion as your basis.
So what do we know about Eldarion ? |
I know nothing. His father was also blessed with long life from the blood of the Dunedain. So hmmm....whose blood would outweigh the other? I am sure that Tolkien intended him to be a mortal because he became the king of men and they would not want an elf as king probably but I think in fan fiction it could go either way since it is not stated, right? _________________ Nagzul #2 - The Nazgul of Shmoove
Crucio! Because stupidity should be painful!
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Alassante Virtual Village Mod

Joined: 10 Dec 2004 Posts: 20 Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Here is what it says in the Encloypedia of Arda:
The son of Aragorn II Elessar and Arwen Evenstar; almost nothing is known of his life, but that he became King of the Reunited Kingdom after the death of his father in IV 120.
For such an important character, almost nothing is known of Eldarion's life or deeds. Almost the only definite statement about him came from his father, who commented that he was 'full-ripe for kingship' in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (given in Appendix A I (v) to The Lord of the Rings). Aragorn's ancestors had tended to take over their duties as Chieftain at about the age of ninety: if Eldarion followed this pattern, this would place his birth in the years around IV 30.
Eldarion inherited his Kingdom in a manner that recalled the ancient traditions of Númenor: his father Aragorn Elessar gave him the tokens of his rule, and then gave up his life willingly, as his mighty ancestors had done thousands of years before. The new King's mother Arwen left him to rule alone, passing away to the now-empty land of Lórien, where her long life also came to an end. As well as being the Heir of Isildur and High King, his descent from Elrond through Arwen made Eldarion the lord of the remaining Elf-lands of Middle-earth. This fact seems to be the source of his name, which apparently means 'Descendant of the Eldar'.
What these great titles meant in practice, cannot now be known. There are references in the History of Middle-earth that make it all but certain that he left descendants to rule after him, but apart from these, no details of Eldarion's time as High King are recorded.
As he was the lord of the remaining elf lands and considered the descendant of the Eldar - I think it sounds like he was kinda both man and elf. _________________ Nagzul #2 - The Nazgul of Shmoove
Crucio! Because stupidity should be painful!
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SpaceWeavil

Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 23 Location: Looking at shiny things
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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I would again be inclined to refer to the Line of Elros, to be honest, and think he would be a long-lived Edain. (for a start, he died.)
I still reckon that'd be a good thing to research. There's probably a bit more to get your teeth into, if you look into things like Unfinished Tales (I have an electronic version of that, which contains a list of all the descendants of Elros and some stuff about them, if that would be of any use) _________________ Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
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SpaceWeavil

Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 23 Location: Looking at shiny things
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Also just as a point, I'm not sure what they're basing that stuff about him becoming high lord of the Eldar on. I don't recall that ever being said in any of the texts or HoME. And we don't know what happened to Celeborn, or to Elrond's sons or to Thranduil. So I think it very unlikely that Eldarion would become their lord to be honest. His name just means son of the Eldar, surely, which is true, and tells you nothing about his status. And I am almost certain there was some reference of what happened after him in Peoples of Middle Earth. Certainly in the unfinished story The Return of the Shadow or New Shadow or whatever it's called, the events were set, according to Christopher Tolkien's notes, after Eldarion's death.
So although I may be wrong, and someone else is welcome to contradict me, I would take that info there with a pinch of salt. _________________ Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 Posts: 665 Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | As for pointed ears, I don't think it says anywhere in canon that elves have pointed ears at all, and there are a lot of references in HoME to elves and men being physically similar, which would seem to suggest that they don't have the ear thing. But since it's nice in the films and whatever, I think it's generally accepted in fan fiction. Way to look at it maybe is through genetics. You could feasibly argue either way, and just say they inherited either the human or elven physical characteristics.
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Ah, Elves and pointy ears ... one of my favorite topics to discuss.
A long time ago, in a post far, far away ... so far away I don't have the energy to find it, we discussed this ... I believe Inglor started the post and it was originally about Elves and pubic hair? We also discussed Balrogs and wings, I believe. Anyways, Andreth quoted one of the professor's letters in which he states that Elves do indeed have pointy ears.
I like to keep the quote under wraps, though, just because the topic makes such good discussion !
... I'm soooo twisted ... _________________ ~ boe an phân pedi ‘lam dadui ~
~ everyone should speak a second language ~ |
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SpaceWeavil

Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 23 Location: Looking at shiny things
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Thuriniel wrote: | | SpaceWeavil wrote: | As for pointed ears, I don't think it says anywhere in canon that elves have pointed ears at all, and there are a lot of references in HoME to elves and men being physically similar, which would seem to suggest that they don't have the ear thing. But since it's nice in the films and whatever, I think it's generally accepted in fan fiction. Way to look at it maybe is through genetics. You could feasibly argue either way, and just say they inherited either the human or elven physical characteristics.
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Ah, Elves and pointy ears ... one of my favorite topics to discuss.
A long time ago, in a post far, far away ... so far away I don't have the energy to find it, we discussed this ... I believe Inglor started the post and it was originally about Elves and pubic hair? We also discussed Balrogs and wings, I believe. Anyways, Andreth quoted one of the professor's letters in which he states that Elves do indeed have pointy ears.
I like to keep the quote under wraps, though, just because the topic makes such good discussion !
... I'm soooo twisted ... |
That one must be pre-my-membership. Sure I would have remembered that
As I said, I'm perfectly willing to admit that everything I said above is probably wrong, A because I've not got the books by my side and am working purely from memory and B because I'm knackered from sifting through stupid Scots case law all day.
But I still stand by what I've said about the bloodlines and stuff with Eldarion, unless someone finds something else to show me I'm wrong. _________________ Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 Posts: 665 Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I'll be ... I can't believe this ... first try and I find it!!! It's disturbing what sort of details remain in my brain ...
Here's the thread
http://www.openscrolls.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
The discussion about the ears begins toward the end, I believe pg. 4/5. After the Balrogs . _________________ ~ boe an phân pedi ‘lam dadui ~
~ everyone should speak a second language ~ |
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Viv Challenge Admin

Joined: 24 Apr 2003 Posts: 71 Location: Texas
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Another question! This time about Half Elven children |
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| Alassante wrote: | I know that Elrond and his children were granted the life of the elves but I want to know if my human OC and an elf have a child, would the child:
1) have elf ears?
2) have elven mannerisms/senses?
3) have long life?
4) be able to go to the undying lands?
5) if they were with another elf and had a child (making the child 75% elf) would they be granted the above? |
First, Elrond's family is very special. Not all half-elf mixes got a Choice. I think, even better than Eldarion, a good example of this would be Dior, Luthien and Beren's son. By reading between the lines, we see that he married at what to a human would be an adult age, but to an elf would be childhood. The conclusion here must be that, physically at least, he was a Man. My instinct would be to say that, barring divine intervention (as happened with Elrond, Elros, and their offpsring), kids of elf/human relationships would by default be Men.
If you want the kiddo to have super powers, you could always write in some sort of divine intervention or reason why the Valar or Eru would get involved. But if your story's set after the 2nd age, that gets harder, since the Valar and Eru didn't intervene a lot from then on. |
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Alassante Virtual Village Mod

Joined: 10 Dec 2004 Posts: 20 Location: Hitchhiking to Rivendell
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Another question! This time about Half Elven children |
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| Viv wrote: | | If you want the kiddo to have super powers, you could always write in some sort of divine intervention or reason why the Valar or Eru would get involved. But if your story's set after the 2nd age, that gets harder, since the Valar and Eru didn't intervene a lot from then on. |
Okay I have decided that my elf children will have pointed ears but I will not discuss any elves' pubic hair (Not that I truly would anyway). One of my half elves has Dunedain blood as well so I am just going to refer to long life not any time frame. I will not mention the undying lands.
Honestly people - how did we get from elf ears to elf public hair??? I ask a simple not-smut question and you guys drag me kicking and screaming back into the gutter. Don't you know I spend enough time there as it is! Obviously you haven't read my stories or you would know that the gutter is where I often dwell unless I come up to snatch cute elves from their feet. _________________ Nagzul #2 - The Nazgul of Shmoove
Crucio! Because stupidity should be painful!
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